Ceiling Condensation - HVAC Advice Needed

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  • steveh_131

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    Alright guys, this problem has been driving me nuts this summer and I can not figure it out for the life of me.

    This has happened for the past two summers. On the hottest and muggiest days, my ceiling in my living room and hallway drips yellow-ish condensation. My wife is complaining of 'pockets' of warm air throughout the living room.

    House layout: Single floor ranch style house, low attic. It has peak vents and soffit vents with blown-in insulation.

    The basement is unfinished. I sealed off the intake and other hvac vents in the basement as it was freezing cold in the summer and seemed wasteful (the problem preceded those changes, though).

    Upstairs the worst of it is in my living room, but it continues down the hall somewhat. There is a whole house fan in the ceiling at the end of the hall, which is not in use on these hot days (but does not seal very well when it's closed off).

    I cleaned the coils on the condensor, they were pretty well clogged with cottonwood. The problem happened again the next day. New filter in furnace, air is blowing plenty cold enough.

    I see a few options:

    1. Warm, moist air is in contact with a cooler ceiling, causing water to condense on the ceiling surface. I don't fully understand how the ceiling could be cooler than the air in the room.. it doesn't feel particularly cool, and the ducts are all run through the basement, not the attic.

    2. Warm moist air in the attic is in contact with the cool ceiling drywall, water condenses, and it drips down through the drywall into the room? It seems like my ceiling would be damaged by this, but the water just wipes right off.

    3. I've considered taking apart the drip hose from the furnace... could that be clogged? It's a clear plastic tube and if I pick it up, water does drip out slowly. No clogs on the line that is outside the furnace, but could it be clogged somewhere inside?

    I need to figure out a way to check my soffit vents and make sure they aren't clogged up with this blown-in crap, the previous owner was a hack and it's possible... but would that cause this particular issue?

    Any other ideas? Thanks, guys.

    ETA: I also have some issues with ice dams in the winter time, causing minor leaks around the chimney. Perhaps this indicates a bigger issue with attic ventilation?
     

    PeaShooter

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    where is the furnace? Where are the furnace vents located (floor/ceiling/other). Can you get attic access? Have you gone up into the attic above your living room to see what is above the dripping locations? i.e. roof vents, vent stacks, etc? Have you checked the insulation above the dripping locations? is it wet?
     

    steveh_131

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    Furnace is in the unfinished basement, along with all ducts.

    Returns and vents are installed in the floor.

    The dripping location is literally the entire ceiling of the living room and hallway, probably a good 400 square feet. There are no vents above it (other than the peak vent) and no moisture in the insulation in those areas that I've ever seen. I was up there 5-6 weeks ago.

    I can pretty well soak a large bath towel when I clean the condensation off the ceiling. But it only happens on the very hottest and muggiest of days like today.
     

    churchmouse

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    Air flow. You are not turning the air over in those areas. Put a fan in the room pointed at the ceiling and if that clears it up (will take a while) you have A.F. issues.

    A/C systems are just big dehumidifiers. They ring the moisture from the air. To get this done the air has to be exchanged through the Furnace/Evaporator at a steady rate.
    Check the blower wheel. Is it dirty. Happens a lot so no big deal but the fins should be clean.

    Are you short on return or supply air.

    You could also just be undersized on the A/C.

    Very hard to diagnose over the keyboard.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    You say there's no moisture in the inslulation...does that mean you pulled it back, above the ceiling where you're seeing the condensation to confirm the top is not wet?

    Has a bathroom exhaust become disconnected or something? Considering possible sources of the moist air, other than the outside: bathrooms, kitchens, water heater pressure relief valves...(that's all I can think of off the top of my head).
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Air flow. You are not turning the air over in those areas. Put a fan in the room pointed at the ceiling and if that clears it up (will take a while) you have A.F. issues.

    A/C systems are just big dehumidifiers. They ring the moisture from the air. To get this done the air has to be exchanged through the Furnace/Evaporator at a steady rate.
    Check the blower wheel. Is it dirty. Happens a lot so no big deal but the fins should be clean.

    Are you short on return or supply air.

    You could also just be undersized on the A/C.

    Very hard to diagnose over the keyboard.


    Yeah, do you have a ceiling fan in this room? Crank it up and see if that helps.
     

    churchmouse

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    Yeah, do you have a ceiling fan in this room? Crank it up and see if that helps.

    Floor mounted supply and returns.......Low air flow in a large room with an outside door.

    If the fan is clean and the filters are not restricted put the fan on full time. Use the floor fan as well. If the moisture goes away there are issues as to Sizing in duct work/blower/A/C or all 3.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Floor mounted supply and returns.......Low air flow in a large room with an outside door.

    If the fan is clean and the filters are not restricted put the fan on full time. Use the floor fan as well. If the moisture goes away there are issues as to Sizing in duct work/blower/A/C or all 3.

    He could put a dehumidifier in that room to see if it helps, too.
     

    steveh_131

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    churchmouse said:
    Check the blower wheel. Is it dirty. Happens a lot so no big deal but the fins should be clean.

    Are you short on return or supply air.

    You could also just be undersized on the A/C.

    Ok, I'll check the blower. How do I tell if I'm short on return or supply air?

    Could be undersized... although my home is only 1100 square feet on the upper level, so that seems unlikely doesn't it?

    Thanks for the ideas, plenty to consider.

    GodFearinGunTotin said:
    You say there's no moisture in the inslulation...does that mean you pulled it back, above the ceiling where you're seeing the condensation to confirm the top is not wet?

    Nope, I haven't done that. Should there be a vapor barrier above the drywall? Are you suggesting that the condensation could be in the attic, then weeping down through the drywall? Can that happen without causing any damage to the ceiling?

    GodFearinGunTotin said:
    Has a bathroom exhaust become disconnected or something? Considering possible sources of the moist air, other than the outside: bathrooms, kitchens, water heater pressure relief valves...(that's all I can think of off the top of my head).

    Good question. My wife's bathroom has no exhaust vent, and she takes 'executive' showers. Could she be creating more moisture than the AC can eliminate on hot, muggy days?

    No ceiling fan in the living room, I will try pointing a large fan at the ceiling and see if that clears it up as churchmouse suggested.
     

    churchmouse

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    As to return air sizing......try and remove the blower door while the blower is running. If it fights you really hard like a lot of suction.......you are short.
    If it offers some resistance to being removed that is normal.

    1100 square feet living space. Get the model number off of the outdoor unit along with the brand name. Post it or PM me the info.

    Does the house heat well in the winter.

    Put the fan in the room. I will bet you a Cheeseburger the moisture goes away.
     

    steveh_131

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    I'll check the blower door soon as I get home, and pass you along the model info.

    Heat seems fine in the winter. Utility bills are usually quite reasonable.
     

    HoughMade

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    As to return air sizing......try and remove the blower door while the blower is running. If it fights you really hard like a lot of suction.......you are short.
    If it offers some resistance to being removed that is normal.

    1100 square feet living space. Get the model number off of the outdoor unit along with the brand name. Post it or PM me the info.

    Does the house heat well in the winter...

    That's it, I'm packing it in and heading home for the day. I learned something and I can't think of a better note to end on...

    ...oh wait.....still have work to do. Dang it.

    Anyhoo, good info.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    When we lived in Bloomington, we had a cape-cod styled house and it was probably less than 1100 ft2 in the upstairs. The AC flow up there was miserable (it was hot up there in the summer) and we never had condensation issues up there (maybe it was because we didn't have enough temp. difference).

    Are you sure nobody's left a window partially opened, allowing the warm air in? (still trying to think of ways for moisture to come in.)

    A friend of mine at work has his AC in the basement. It's partially finished and part of it still has the dirt floor. He went down there the other day and said he had water all over the floor down there and it was dripping off the AC ducts--apparently, the moisture is coming out of the ground. He put a dehumidifier down there and it helped.
     

    steveh_131

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    HoughMade said:
    Anyhoo, good info.

    Yeah, I usually read all of these DIY type threads even if it doesn't apply to me in the slightest. Always something to learn from the guys who know their stuff.

    I read churchmouse's reply to a guy a while back about cleaning his outdoor condensor to avoid moisture issues, that's what inspired me to go do it - holy crap was that thing clogged up!

    churchmouse said:
    Air flow requirements for A/C are higher than for heat.

    Ok, good to know. This would explain the 'pockets' of warm air that my wife is describing as well so I really think this is probably the primary issue.
     

    churchmouse

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    When we lived in Bloomington, we had a cape-cod styled house and it was probably less than 1100 ft2 in the upstairs. The AC flow up there was miserable (it was hot up there in the summer) and we never had condensation issues up there (maybe it was because we didn't have enough temp. difference).

    Are you sure nobody's left a window partially opened, allowing the warm air in? (still trying to think of ways for moisture to come in.)

    A friend of mine at work has his AC in the basement. It's partially finished and part of it still has the dirt floor. He went down there the other day and said he had water all over the floor down there and it was dripping off the AC ducts--apparently, the moisture is coming out of the ground. He put a dehumidifier down there and it helped.

    If the house is not dehumidifying properly in the 1st place this can happen. I had the same issue in our add on space. I have seen it in other homes.

    Cooking/showers/breathing..........all add to the moisture level.
     

    steveh_131

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    I'll check around for leaks or open windows, but I don't _think_ so.

    As far as the basement, I have concrete floors and a dehumidifier running down there 24/7 set on 60% humidity, and a digital gauge that I check periodically that never shows moisture above 60% either.

    The lack of a bathroom exhaust is the biggest source of moisture I can think of. Also two kids, stay at home wife and a lot of cooking going on.

    I'll check the dryer vent and make sure it's hooked up right, but that's in the dehumidified basement as well.
     

    churchmouse

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    I'll check around for leaks or open windows, but I don't _think_ so.

    As far as the basement, I have concrete floors and a dehumidifier running down there 24/7 set on 60% humidity, and a digital gauge that I check periodically that never shows moisture above 60% either.

    The lack of a bathroom exhaust is the biggest source of moisture I can think of. Also two kids, stay at home wife and a lot of cooking going on.

    I'll check the dryer vent and make sure it's hooked up right, but that's in the dehumidified basement as well.

    That humidity can migrate up top. Moisture is on a constant search to equalize.
     

    steveh_131

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    churchmouse said:
    That humidity can migrate up top. Moisture is on a constant search to equalize.

    Good point. I'll check the basement for any signs of moisture. We've had a ton of rain lately, it's possible. Fortunately I live in a hill and I fixed the grading when we moved in to send water away from the house.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    I'll check around for leaks or open windows, but I don't _think_ so.

    As far as the basement, I have concrete floors and a dehumidifier running down there 24/7 set on 60% humidity, and a digital gauge that I check periodically that never shows moisture above 60% either.

    The lack of a bathroom exhaust is the biggest source of moisture I can think of. Also two kids, stay at home wife and a lot of cooking going on.

    I'll check the dryer vent and make sure it's hooked up right, but that's in the dehumidified basement as well.

    Oh yeah, I forgot about the dryer vent.

    That pockets of warm air...to CM's comments, that sounds like air flow, alright.
     
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