Central Indiana High Power NRA 1K match - 9/22

[JonProphet]

I can’t answer for the last question but to all the others, yes. All affect verticals.

 

[Litlratt]

I intend to shoot sling also, if I continue with this. That's a new set of variables I haven't uncorked at 1k, yet. (I shot my first match only with bipod, just to see if I could get on paper).

So in your experience, is a vertical string the result of ammo, a fast heating barrel...or do all barrels and ammo simply do this, and the shooter has to learn to read the effect and make compensations as the string progresses?

I did not experience vertical stringing, other than a time at Red Brush that my M1A's sight ratcheted during a rapid fire string. There were times that I didn't hold elevation well.

Of the 20 shots for score, how many would you consider to be well executed shots?
How well can you call your shots?
How many shots broke high?

 

[Twangbanger]

I did not experience vertical stringing, other than a time at Red Brush that my M1A's sight ratcheted during a rapid fire string. There were times that I didn't hold elevation well.

Of the 20 shots for score, how many would you consider to be well executed shots?
How well can you call your shots?
How many shots broke high?

I'm glad you mentioned shot-calling, because that's something I've wondered about. I got a surprise break on every shot, and except for the first shot, which I was just not mentally ready for, none of those shots broke with the crosshairs any further out than the edge of the 9-ring. The high ones were real puzzlers to me. I know you said you only need to see where the target is, and I basically concur for most shooting. But let's get real, you also said you like to buy points, and at the Riley silhouette matches you're using a Nightforce for 200 yards!

I'm currently using a 4x16 Athlon Mil Dot, not because I like that magnification or measurement system, but simply because in the many tracking tests I've performed on that scope on big white pieces of cardboard, I know that scope "moves" the bullets by the exact amount the turret says they're supposed to (and those also correspond accurately to the measurement system on the reticle grid). But I would like some more magnification. I would like to see more positional detail against the target, when that reticle lifts off. What are other people using at this distance?

 

[Litlratt]

I'm glad you mentioned shot-calling, because that's something I've wondered about. I got a surprise break on every shot, and except for the first shot, which I was just not mentally ready for, none of those shots broke with the crosshairs any further out than the edge of the 9-ring. The high ones were real puzzlers to me. I know you said you only need to see where the target is, and I basically concur for most shooting. But let's get real, you also said you like to buy points, and at the Riley silhouette matches you're using a Nightforce for 200 yards!

I'm currently using a 4x16 Athlon Mil Dot, not because I like that magnification or measurement system, but simply because in the many tracking tests I've performed on that scope on big white pieces of cardboard, I know that scope "moves" the bullets by the exact amount the turret says they're supposed to (and those also correspond accurately to the measurement system on the reticle grid). But I would like some more magnification. I would like to see more positional detail against the target, when that reticle lifts off. What are other people using at this distance?

Shot calling is more than where the crosshairs were at the time the shot broke. It also includes what direction and at what speed. I have to assume that when you say the edge of the 9 ring you are talking about holding off for wind or are you saying that you have a 9 ring vertical hold?

Read what I said again. That being that you only need to know where the target is. I'll give you a couple of examples. I know/knew of a number of iron sight 1k shooters who had not been able to see the aiming black. They did know that the aiming black was in the center of the large frame above their number board. They adjusted their sights accordingly while holding on the frame, shooting very good scores without the ability to see the target. Years ago, at a 1k match at Atterbury I forgot my sight box, scope and irons. Wayne Faatz loaned me his scope for the match. His rings fit my rail but was so misaligned that there was not enough windage available for me to aim at and hit my target. The solution was to aim at the target to my right and adjust the scope accordingly. Many of those shots were made when that target had been pulled into the pits for scoring, I simply relied on my position and squeezed the trigger while aiming in midair. I had a 198X? Sue Mogle probably remembers this as she got quite a kick out of me forgetting some of my gear.

I use a NF on that rifle at Riley now because that is the best scope I own. It was the best scope that I could afford when I was shooting 1k. I won the 1k State Championship one year using a Tasco 20X Super Sniper. They are not known for their clarity but mine was mechanically sound. I still have that scope and you are welcome to use it if you think a little more magnification might help.

 

[Twangbanger]

Shot calling is more than where the crosshairs were at the time the shot broke. It also includes what direction and at what speed. I have to assume that when you say the edge of the 9 ring you are talking about holding off for wind or are you saying that you have a 9 ring vertical hold?

Read what I said again. That being that you only need to know where the target is. I'll give you a couple of examples. I know/knew of a number of iron sight 1k shooters who had not been able to see the aiming black. They did know that the aiming black was in the center of the large frame above their number board. They adjusted their sights accordingly while holding on the frame, shooting very good scores without the ability to see the target. Years ago, at a 1k match at Atterbury I forgot my sight box, scope and irons. Wayne Faatz loaned me his scope for the match. His rings fit my rail but was so misaligned that there was not enough windage available for me to aim at and hit my target. The solution was to aim at the target to my right and adjust the scope accordingly. Many of those shots were made when that target had been pulled into the pits for scoring, I simply relied on my position and squeezed the trigger while aiming in midair. I had a 198X? Sue Mogle probably remembers this as she got quite a kick out of me forgetting some of my gear.

I use a NF on that rifle at Riley now because that is the best scope I own. It was the best scope that I could afford when I was shooting 1k. I won the 1k State Championship one year using a Tasco 20X Super Sniper. They are not known for their clarity but mine was mechanically sound. I still have that scope and you are welcome to use it if you think a little more magnification might help.

That is a really good observation about irons shooters, because it's true: there, you really have no detailed perception of the lift-off like you do with a scope, and yet competitors manage good scores. I think I will stick with the 16x because thinking back on my shot-calling, there was really nothing that could account for shots being that high, in terms of the reticle being "off" when the shot went. The reticles were mostly well-centered, but the shots floated up there anyhow.

I've though about it some more, and one observation I lost track of since the match was that I really didn't have a repeatable anchor with the rear bag on every shot. I wasn't getting a consistent amount of shoulder behind the gun. I had the bag all the way back to overlapping the end of the stock, in order to get the reticle positioned (if I went down another notch with my bipod, it was too low), and at one point I even tried tossing the bag out because it was hassling me so much. I would be willing to bet that was letting shots ride up. I will be rid of this the next match, because I will be shooting sling and if nothing else, will get that rifle anchored on the shoulder the same every time. (A whippy plastic stock and heavy trigger will have also been addressed by next match, but I don't think they were a big contributor because they were the same on every shot).

A minor point on match administration: I saw some folks have occasional misses that were apparently just overlooked. Is this a case of giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he just had a round that clocked slow and didn't register? I figure this is not a national championship level match, so maybe if a person is hitting otherwise, people were cutting each other slack. I really don't know, but wanted to ask. I don't want to violate community protocol and count somebody off, incorrectly.

And what about cross-fires? There were several of those, and it looked like folks were just shrugging it off and not counting misses. (Guess I really need to get a rule book before going much farther).

Fortunately, the super-nice gentleman who bounced a round off the dirt road 200 feet in front of the firing line had that errant projectile adjudicated according to Hoyle, and the ensuing cloud of dust garnered a miss...

 

[Litlratt]

That is a really good observation about irons shooters, because it's true: there, you really have no detailed perception of the lift-off like you do with a scope, and yet competitors manage good scores. I think I will stick with the 16x because thinking back on my shot-calling, there was really nothing that could account for shots being that high, in terms of the reticle being "off" when the shot went. The reticles were mostly well-centered, but the shots floated up there anyhow.

I've though about it some more, and one observation I lost track of since the match was that I really didn't have a repeatable anchor with the rear bag on every shot. I wasn't getting a consistent amount of shoulder behind the gun. I had the bag all the way back to overlapping the end of the stock, in order to get the reticle positioned (if I went down another notch with my bipod, it was too low), and at one point I even tried tossing the bag out because it was hassling me so much. I would be willing to bet that was letting shots ride up. I will be rid of this the next match, because I will be shooting sling and if nothing else, will get that rifle anchored on the shoulder the same every time. (A whippy plastic stock and heavy trigger will have also been addressed by next match, but I don't think they were a big contributor because they were the same on every shot).

A minor point on match administration: I saw some folks have occasional misses that were apparently just overlooked. Is this a case of giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he just had a round that clocked slow and didn't register? I figure this is not a national championship level match, so maybe if a person is hitting otherwise, people were cutting each other slack. I really don't know, but wanted to ask. I don't want to violate community protocol and count somebody off, incorrectly.

And what about cross-fires? There were several of those, and it looked like folks were just shrugging it off and not counting misses. (Guess I really need to get a rule book before going much farther).

Fortunately, the super-nice gentleman who bounced a round off the dirt road 200 feet in front of the firing line had that errant projectile adjudicated according to Hoyle, and the ensuing cloud of dust garnered a miss...

Calling your shots with irons is the same as with a scope and can be done very accurately.

The ability to repeat your position is critical. If you experienced issues with a bipod and a bag and you believe that you can reduce or eliminate them by shooting with a sling.......good luck. Once again, I say this not knowing your experience with sling shooting.

I have no experience with the new target system or how they now apply the rules. We pulled in the pits, misses and crossfires were handled accordingly on the line and were never overlooked for score.

 

[JonProphet]

16x isn’t enough. You really need to be able to dial it up to hold lines.

Most top shooters, I believe, zero their scope for windage and leave it there. I’m sure there are exceptions but because we use calibrated targets, the elevation and windage holds are tight there.

At 1k yards, at least with a FFP scope it’s a challenge to do holds at 24x. I now have a 50 power scope. Even at midrange I’ve heard folks say, one reason they don’t go any higher than 32x is out of fear of crossfires.

I’ll be dialing my scopes up and down. Not only to see my target but also for mirage.

 

[JonProphet]

A miss is supposed to be a miss. I was on the receiving of said “adjustment” I did record some misses on my card. The guys I was shooting with seemed to be more of the attitude, “another day at the range” rather than a competition but this is a club level match. If people caring you do it, they will speak to you about it. We are supposed to follow the rules. Some was caught cheating a few months ago and he got a stern tsalking to. I was doing so poorly, I didn’t care. No excuse I know.

 

[natdscott]

I intend to shoot sling also, if I continue with this. That's a new set of variables I haven't uncorked at 1k, yet.

Sling prone is a lifetime of work, and you can never really get "perfect" because the targets just get smaller. I'd guess the best Smallbore Prone shooters in the World have worked themselves nearly to death to achieve a hold radius somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 Minute of Angle. It is almost a requirement, because if you can't hold at that level, then you leave no room for the ammunition and rifle and wind to exhibit any error. And in those games, errors of almost any kind will lose the match.

I have been shooting at a pretty good clip for 23 years, and pushing on towards a decade in Highpower and cross-training. My prone hold radius is somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 Minute, but I don't have a SCATT to measure...I'm just going from groups and scores.

At the LR Nationals...I'm just kinda another dude in the middle. It's pretty stark the number of 2X Distinguished/National Champions/High Master types you see walking around looking like normal human beings, and talking about "dropping shots" out of the X-ring.

If it's at Atterbury again next year, Twangbanger, you need to GO. It's one of those benchmark/lifetime kind of experiences.

So in your experience, is a vertical string the result of ammo, a fast heating barrel...or do all barrels and ammo simply do this, and the shooter has to learn to read the effect and make compensations as the string progresses?

Option 1 is, and will always be, speed consistency issues. At death, barrels can cause that, but it is almost always ammo.

Only after all has been lost on option 1---AND the rifle shoots with a lot of vertical as it heats up at SHORT range---should you start looking for barrel, action, spring, trigger issues.

I'm glad you mentioned shot-calling, because that's something I've wondered about. I got a surprise break on every shot...

Don't get too married to that surprise break. It's good in some instances, and not in others. It is also not a strict requirement to shoot well.

When I am holding for X-count, I suppose it's maybe a surpsise-ish break, but my decision to pull the trigger "rightaboutnow" in the hold cycle is very much a conscious decision. In bag/rest prone, you may have more time, but for me and Littlrat, there's about ONE second when it is just right to send the round in the chamber.

The trick with intentional trigger pulling is to train yourself to do it consistently. The trick to surprise trigger breaks is to teach yourself to do it consistently. The trick to using both is to know which one to use when.

The high ones were real puzzlers to me.

The high ones shouldn't be puzzlers...it's your first day at 1,000 yards. You could be shouldering the rifle, you could be shooting crappy ammo (crappy being: meant for 3-400 yards at most), you could have a less-than-match barrel, you could have environmentals you are ignorant to, man...it's a long list right now. Too long for us to solve it here on the internet.

The beauty of the sport though, is the very length of that list. It's a long-term adventure to learn how to remove all those barriers to success. Start on the worst ones, and work your way down. I'd start with the shooter, and I'd go to the library.

I know you said you only need to see where the target is, and I basically concur for most shooting. But let's get real, you also said you like to buy points, and at the Riley silhouette matches you're using a Nightforce for 200 yards!

I kinda reckon Littlratt here can use just about whatever he wants at this point. But the deal is, he could probably shoot those Silos with irons if they were black. I know I can, and he's somewhat older than me. He's one of these guys that has been there/done that in enough sports for enough years that he kinda knows where to start with most "new" sports. One of those things is knowing that you cannot allow a sighting system to hold back the score...that's got NOTHING to do with magnification directly.

Maybe the biggest thing though: this person has trained himself to WIN. In some areas, he has probably trained enough that not only can see sight pictures in his sleep.

He knows what it feels like to WIN, knows what it takes to get there, and has been there enough to know how to take a brain that is a whirlwind of thoughts and calculations and pressure, and reduce that mess down to just ONE task at the critical moments. Just one focus, because one focus is all the space there is when it has to count.

It's the sorta thing that separates Champions from winners.

It can be a sore point, for sure, but the more a guy like him wins, the more he's likely to continue winning. IF he keeps training.

Talent is not enough.

I know/knew of a number of iron sight 1k shooters who had not been able to see the aiming black. They did know that the aiming black was in the center of the large frame above their number board. They adjusted their sights accordingly while holding on the frame, shooting very good scores without the ability to see the target.

I am one of those shooters. Breaking shots with an A2 at 1,000 yards typically involves somewhere between "pretty good" to "horrible" sight pictures, but it CAN be doable.

I have held at top of frame, bottom of frame/grass, and rarely center/Navy, and maybe some of those times, it actually worked out okay. A bunch of times it didn't, too. It's really hard, and it was supposed to be, and nobody told me otherwise.

I've though about it some more, and one observation I lost track of since the match was that I really didn't have a repeatable anchor with the rear bag on every shot. I wasn't getting a consistent amount of shoulder behind the gun. I had the bag all the way back to overlapping the end of the stock, in order to get the reticle positioned (if I went down another notch with my bipod, it was too low), and at one point I even tried tossing the bag out because it was hassling me so much. I would be willing to bet that was letting shots ride up. I will be rid of this the next match, because I will be shooting sling and if nothing else, will get that rifle anchored on the shoulder the same every time. (A whippy plastic stock and heavy trigger will have also been addressed by next match, but I don't think they were a big contributor because they were the same on every shot).

Naw. Naw they weren't nearly the same on every shot. Take a look at the rest of your paragraph, and know that ALL of those things affect how that rifle is recoiling and vibrating when you send the round.

Experimentation is normal, and necessary. But every time you change something, 15 other things also change, and have to be known and accounted for before you send the next round. This is most often accomplished by checking NPA again if you even decide to fart in between rounds. I'm only half kidding.

A minor point on match administration: I saw some folks have occasional misses that were apparently just overlooked.

And what about cross-fires? There were several of those, and it looked like folks were just shrugging it off and not counting misses. (Guess I really need to get a rule book before going much farther).

Quit paying attention to other people's procedures until you have your own hammered out. Observe the way they handle ammo, work through procedures, safely do things, drive their rifles, etc...but from the outside, you need not concern yourself with their misses or crossfires unless they were on your target. If you are SCORER, then that's a different story because you are responsible for correctly representing the score and sticking up for your shooter AND/OR the rules, when need be.

I will agree with you though that the E-targets have introduced some strange flexibility in protocol, most pointed at 1,000 yards. It is SO GD easy to shoot a miss at 1,000 it's not even funny, so to just automatically give the shooter another shot is maybe an issue. I don't pretend to know the answers to how that should be done.

The ability to repeat your position is critical. If you experienced issues with a bipod and a bag and you believe that you can reduce or eliminate them by shooting with a sling.......good luck. Once again, I say this not knowing your experience with sling shooting.

Can't emphasize that enough. A guy has to be really methodical and detailed about how he sets up a position (that's the technical/mechanical side of it). He also has to be flexible enough to test new things and adapt to different ranges and conditions, and to know when (and maybe as important, when NOT) to change something (that's the art side of the thing). All the while, he has to be drilling and training to death everything he can so that when he needs to draw on some reserves to really make it count, there is a reserve (that's the work side of it).

Winners practice until they can get it right. Champions practice until they can't get it wrong.

-Nate

 

[Twangbanger]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. It is really appreciated. I'm shooting factory ammo for now, in a rifle that cost $100 less than a Glock, and at a sport where realistic practice between matches is impossible. I have a list to work on, and anytime I can score points off the clock by reducing a variable or two, it's a help.

 

[natdscott]

...a sport where realistic practice between matches is impossible.

Whatcha mean?

Practice is very achievable by most shooters, even if they can't go further than the living room floor.

Between that, and buying yourself a veritable library of books on the topics at hand to study in the wee hours, you can build a pretty good skill set without igniting a single primer.

At least that way, when you DO get out to the range, you can spend your time strictly looking at the conditions, simply because you already took care of everything else. The wind waits for nobody. Remove all the determinate variables you can on your own time.

-Nate

 

[rhino]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. It is really appreciated. I'm shooting factory ammo for now, in a rifle that cost $100 less than a Glock, and at a sport where realistic practice between matches is impossible. I have a list to work on, and anytime I can score points off the clock by reducing a variable or two, it's a help.

The target you shot was pretty damn good for a first time with a cheap rifle and factory ammo, sir.

 

[Twangbanger]

Thanks for the kind word, Rhino. I finished last by a good margin, but the last target made me willing to stick with this barreled action a bit longer, while I'm seeing if I enjoy this sport. If I can tame down that vertical a bit, this cheapo gun will be good enough for me to learn with as I attack other problems.

What do you more experienced sling shooters like, in terms of a currently available product? I am kicking myself for letting my old smallbore sling get away when I classified my Rem. 540 a few years back (neck injury did a decent job on my left arm at the time, and I thought this sort of thing was over for me). It had the nice cuff that spreads the pressure out, and that sort of thing seems hard to replace. So I'm back in the market. I have a magpul nylon sling, but would like something more, well, nicer. Since I will now be putting a bit of tension up there, I have a stock coming to replace the whippy plastic OEM junk, and so something decent to attach to it seems appropriate.

I picked out a "summery" jacket from good ol' CC (and my FWB filling adapters that I lost). So this could go in the same shipping box...

 

[natdscott]

For a match sling, I'd go with a Kurt Thune UIT II.

Check out 10pt9.com

 

[Litlratt]

Champion's Choice

 

[JonProphet]

Hey guys, this is a great discussion. Should it be moved out into its own thread in the forum?

 

[natdscott]

Hey guys, this is a great discussion. Should it be moved out into its own thread in the forum?

I think you are exactly right.