Charges considered against driver in bicyclist's shooting in Taylor, MI

[Captain Morgan]

If the MSM is reporting accurately, then there must have been multiple witnesses to attest to the fact that Enoch tried crossing against the light, then got violent. Sounds like cut and dried self-defense to me.

Definitely self-defense, but I still think I'd throw the car in gear and get the F out of dodge, rather than shoot the guy. But I also wasn't there and don't know all the specifics.

 

[daddymikey1975]

The guy might not have been able to move the vehicle. There may have been stopped traffic in front of and behind him Moving the vehicle may not have been possible. I would also have to agree that, since I wasn't there, if someone is pummeling me through an open window and I'm still strapped (confined) in with my seat belt, my gun is a quick way to neutralize the threat. Should I have to wait for the guy to open my door before I draw? At what point is drawing acceptable?

Granted, we're all monday morning quarterbacking here, but I don't see a problem with what the guy did. Hopefully MI agrees

 

[hoosierdoc]

There are several alternative actions the guy could have taken. Since he did not have a duty to retreat, he's not guilty simply because he could have attempted to drive away instead.

 

[KLB]

Agreed.

Many people seem very comfortable with the idea of unleashing lead on people who "deserve it."

This guys trip through the legal system will likely make him regret the day he pulled that weapon.

Whatever the circumstances, I would imagine the vast majority of people regret shooting someone.

I find it amazing that people judge someone else's actions so readily.

To say a shoot isn't justified because the other guy did not have a weapon is silly. A person can do serious damage without a weapon.

As for driving away, if someone is pounding on you it isn't exactly easy to think clearly. Not to mention we don't even know if the car was still on.

Looks like Michigan law is about as clear as Indiana law.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I'm sure it took time from the initial thump of Enoch's bike against the side of the car and the thump-thump-thumping Enoch delivered to the driver's head. In that time, it's not only possible, but probable that the cross-walk lights had changed. The light having changed, it's not only possible, but probable that there were pedestrians in the walk way. Pedestrians being in play, it's not only possible, but probable that had the victim thrown the car into gear in order to retreat, even if retreat had been possible in Detroit traffic, he would have been putting many more lives at risk by attempting to retreat than he did by ventilating his attacker.

Of course, all of this is supposition, which can be falsified by additional info.

 

[Hookeye]

Trying to drive away, while being beaten, the guy could have pulled out and hit a cyclist.................

 

[littletommy]

Quite a few differing opinions on this, but one things very certain, that cyclist will never act like an ass hole again.

 

[GeneralCarver]

This situation will be different since he was inside his car. Its not just a fist fight on the street. And here's the other gray area... All it takes is one good hit to the forehead etc. to knock someone out. I am greatly afraid of being knocked out if I am attacked by someone. I would fear further injury after I am knocked out. So if he was getting hit repeatedly in the face.. I'd say that's a serious attack. Your brain controls your thinking. You go hitting someone's head full force.. that's dangerous. And it sounds like that's what the cyclist was doing.

And he's in his vehicle. That's basically like attacking someone in their home from a legal standpoint. Personally, I believe he was justified based on what i've read (assuming everything was correct). I got a real problem with this idea that just because someone is not armed that they can just pound you in your face and you can't use lethal force to stop them.

And yeah, maybe he could have drove off.. maybe not. Was the attacker leaning in the car? had he already been hit and was stunned or shocked? No condition to drive a car. Think about it. Just some thoughts.

 

[Jack Burton]

sounds very similar to the first defensive use of a CCW in Texas

No Indictment in Fatal Use of Gun in Traffic Fight - NYTimes.com

 

[Steeler]

They may end up saying deadly force was justified, but if it were me Im going to do everything possible to avoid shooting this *******. I have no interest in leaving my freedom in the hands of people I don't know.

 

[Gun Bunny]

I'm sure it took time from the initial thump of Enoch's bike against the side of the car and the thump-thump-thumping Enoch delivered to the driver's head. In that time, it's not only possible, but probable that the cross-walk lights had changed. The light having changed, it's not only possible, but probable that there were pedestrians in the walk way. Pedestrians being in play, it's not only possible, but probable that had the victim thrown the car into gear in order to retreat, even if retreat had been possible in Detroit traffic, he would have been putting many more lives at risk by attempting to retreat than he did by ventilating his attacker.

Of course, all of this is supposition, which can be falsified by additional info.

This ^

I will ask this, when is it ok to start punching someone and not expect them not having the means to protect themselves? The person could be like this guy and legally carrying or he might be some thug that is packing. People just never know and should think about it what they do.

 

[pack-indy]

This ^

I will ask this, when is it ok to start punching someone and not expect them not having the means to protect themselves? The person could be like this guy and legally carrying or he might be some thug that is packing. People just never know and should think about it what they do.

While I certainly don't condone the actions taken by the cyclist, I do believe that people make decisions (usually bad ones) based on emotion without thinking things through. Are you implying that everytime someone gets in a fist fight, a gun can and should be used for defense? If that is the case, that sounds more like an argument from the antis. "People escalate arguments and resort to guns over simple matters if they are allowed to carry them." Back in the day you just fought it out and call it a day, not anymore I suppose.

 

[jbombelli]

While I certainly don't condone the actions taken by the cyclist, I do believe that people make decisions (usually bad ones) based on emotion without thinking things through. Are you implying that everytime someone gets in a fist fight, a gun can and should be used for defense? If that is the case, that sounds more like an argument from the antis. "People escalate arguments and resort to guns over simple matters if they are allowed to carry them." Back in the day you just fought it out and call it a day, not anymore I suppose.

Avoid fist fights. People die in them. It's not like the older days when you'd fall down and hit your head on the dirt, or grass, or wrestling mat. Today you fall and hit your head on pavement, and can easily wind up with severe brain injuries or dead as a result.

Also, Indiana Code authorizes the use of deadly force to protect yourself from SERIOUS BODILY INJURY, which includes unconsciousness.

As I said above... if you don't want to get killed (not YOU specifically, just in the general sense), don't start **** with people.

 

[Jack Burton]

I have a serious ongoing neck problem. One solid punch to the head just might kill me, and it's documented so in my medical record. Just how many times do you think I am going to take a punch before I defend myself with up-to lethal force to protect my life?

We don't know what the situation was that encounter.

 

[pack-indy]

As I said above... if you don't want to get killed (not YOU specifically, just in the general sense), don't start **** with people.

Agreed.

I have a serious ongoing neck problem. One solid punch to the head just might kill me, and it's documented so in my medical record. Just how many times do you think I am going to take a punch before I defend myself with up-to lethal force to protect my life?

We don't know what the situation was that encounter.

This is where each circumstance is different. There was a thread about some hooligan 13yr olds harrassing an old woman and the argument was the same as you present. It is different for everyone and we don't know enough to draw conclusions. Even if we did know more, how many times have we been surprised at the justice system? My point is that we (those in the gun community) get accustomed to thinking that lethal force is justified in many cases in which it is not. I would not want to be in his shoes right now. I rest my case

 

[Ted]

Serious bodily injury also includes a specific degree of pain....with or without other injury.

 

[Steeler]

Jurys are unpredictable. Last resort only for me.

 

[actaeon277]

I'm sure it took time from the initial thump of Enoch's bike against the side of the car and the thump-thump-thumping Enoch delivered to the driver's head. In that time, it's not only possible, but probable that the cross-walk lights had changed. The light having changed, it's not only possible, but probable that there were pedestrians in the walk way. Pedestrians being in play, it's not only possible, but probable that had the victim thrown the car into gear in order to retreat, even if retreat had been possible in Detroit traffic, he would have been putting many more lives at risk by attempting to retreat than he did by ventilating his attacker.

Of course, all of this is supposition, which can be falsified by additional info.

And what would have happened if the guy decides to try to drive away.
Being punched repeatedly in the head is not condusive (sp?) to thinking properly.
Maybe he'd have run over a child.
Then, the conversation here would be..... "I can't believe he tried to drive away when he had a gun to defend himself. That kid would be alive. He must be guilty."

 

[Glock19]

Drive forward or unbuckle and scoot away...I wasnt there but there but it seems he would have had more options. You cant just shoot everyone who hits you.

 

[IndyGunner]

Wonder what MI's law is on this. Indiana is pretty clear. No "fear" needed to stop an attack on your occupied motor vehicle.

^THIS