Check my 9mm load for me

[AngryRooster]

I just want to double check and make sure my 9mm load sounds good. It's been a few years since I've reloaded and I'm looking at some damaged equipment as well. Some boxes shifted and fell and my scale is broke along with my powder measure. I still have my Lee powder dippers and I don't need to load much, about 250 rounds.

I'm using up the remaining TiteGroup powder I have, the primers are some older Fiocchi Lead Free that I had in an ammo can. The bullet is a 147 HP plated from Xtreme bullets that I got free during the Black Friday sale.

My old Lee book lists TiteGroup for a 147 XTP between 3.2 & 3.6 grains. The chart in the back lists the Lee .3 dipper at 3.5 for TiteGroup. I've worked up loads to close to max in the past using this powder but it was with a 124 FMJ not 147 plated. It's my understanding the plating on the Xtreme bullets is a little thicker than the others.

Guns will be a Glock 19, M&P FS & M&P Pro. I'm going to have to wait a few weeks to order new equipment but would like to get these done so I can get some range time in while the weather is warmer.

Thoughts?

 

[trophyhunter]

Just one man's opinion, but after weighing charges dipped and struck properly against the charts and showing the discrepancies to new reloaders over the years Lee dippers are a trip to the ER waiting to happen, NEVER reload anything without a quality functional scale and check weights on your bench in good working order.

Get a Dillon Eliminator scale, it's just a rebranded O'haus but it's absolutely the best buy in reloading scales as it doesn't command anywhere near a premium Dillon price and the frame, beam and components are larger than other brands at entry level prices.

It works better than a 505 or similar, much faster to zero and less sensitive to air currents. You can own six or seven of them for the cost of two stitches these days.

 

[AngryRooster]

Just one man's opinion, but after weighing charges dipped and struck properly against the charts and showing the discrepancies to new reloaders over the years Lee dippers are a trip to the ER waiting to happen, NEVER reload anything without a quality functional scale and check weights on your bench in good working order.

Get a Dillon Eliminator scale, it's just a rebranded O'haus but it's absolutely the best buy in reloading scales as it doesn't command anywhere near a premium Dillon price and the frame, beam and components are larger than other brands at entry level prices.

It works better than a 505 or similar, much faster to zero and less sensitive to air currents. You can own six or seven of them for the cost of two stitches these days.

I bought the Lee dippers for a backup several years ago and haven't used them. I was wondering how accurate they were. I guess I'll have to wait until I can get a scale and powder measure again. I'll check the accuracy of the dippers out of curiosity once I get those in. Thanks for the info.

 

[trophyhunter]

I bought the Lee dippers for a backup several years ago and haven't used them. I was wondering how accurate they were. I guess I'll have to wait until I can get a scale and powder measure again. I'll check the accuracy of the dippers out of curiosity once I get those in. Thanks for the info.

Your welcome, you'll find some powders are reasonably in line with the charts and other's are so far off base in their volume that in the case of a higher pressure loading such as the 9mm or 40 S&W those discrepancies coupled with not maintaining sufficient COL or bullet setback has created a hand grenade.

Just not worth the risk, I watched a friend destroy a WWII Singer sewing machine 1911 (and part of his hand) using 230g reloads that he dipped AA #2 to load middle of road for pressure and speed carefully following the charts and taking his time to strike each one. I watched him make those loads, he took exceptional care doing it.

That was a very long time ago, and it makes me sick to this day to recall it happening that was his father's service pistol. We later checked that dipper and chart with an O'haus 1000 scale that belonged to the armorer at the local PD, it was a mile off and entirely responsible for the destruction of that heirloom. Back then dealers were selling people reloading supplies and not emphasizing a scale purchase to beginner's.

Here's a QL spreadsheet for that load seated to 1.140 COL remember with the 9mm pressures seating depth is just as important in the recipe as powder charge in the bigger picture:

Cartridge          : 9 mm Luger (SAAMI)Bullet             : .355, 147, Hornady HPBT XTP 35580
Useable Case Capaci: 6.758 grain H2O = 0.439 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.140 inch = 28.96 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon TiteGroup


Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !


Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms


-20.0   54     2.72    795     206   21713   2328    100.0    0.603
-18.0   55     2.79    808     213   22774   2373    100.0    0.591
-16.0   56     2.86    821     220   23867   2418    100.0    0.578
-14.0   58     2.92    833     227   24993   2464    100.0    0.566
-12.0   59     2.99    846     234   26153   2509    100.0    0.555
-10.0   60     3.06    858     240   27348   2553    100.0    0.544
-08.0   62     3.13    871     247   28577   2598    100.0    0.533
-06.0   63     3.20    883     254   29843   2643    100.0    0.523  ! Near Maximum !
-04.0   64     3.26    895     261   31145   2687    100.0    0.514  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   66     3.33    907     268   32484   2731    100.0    0.504  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   67     3.40    918     275   33862   2775    100.0    0.495  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   68     3.47    930     282   35278   2819    100.0    0.487  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   70     3.54    942     289   36735   2862    100.0    0.479  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   71     3.60    953     297   38233   2906    100.0    0.471  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   72     3.67    965     304   39772   2949    100.0    0.463  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   74     3.74    976     311   41355   2992    100.0    0.455  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[jwh20]

The Lee dippers are a volume measure where all your loading data is by weight. The dippers are an attempt to equate weight and volume but this is only possible when all other factors are constant. Unfortunately the factors are not constant. I sometimes use Lee dippers but only to get close but below the charge I'm looking for. I then use a scale and a powder trickler to get exactly the powder charge I'm after.

9mm is a very tight tolerance loading and I wouldn't trust the dippers alone without an actual weight measurement. As you said:

3.2 & 3.6 grains

So as you'll see with a scale, that 0.4 gr. turns out to be only a few particles of the powder. Something beyond the capability of a dipper-based measure.

 

[tnek13]

Dippers are only good to drop the charge into the pan on the scale.

 

[AngryRooster]

Dippers are only good to drop the charge into the pan on the scale.

Got my scale in today and that's exactly what I did. Strangely enough, the .5cc dipper was dead on with Bullseye. dipped it until it was heaped over the top then tapped it level and it was 4.8 grains with load paper showing max load at 4.9 grains. I worked my loads up from min last time I loaded using all the same components. 4.8 gave the best accuracy in the load range.

I adjusted my powder measure and checked it with the scale. It was a little off from last time I used it (4.5 grains) but not much. I'm just glad I can reload again. Now to find time to get to the range....

 

[Karl-just-Karl]

I apologize for the threadjack.

Trophyhunter:

I'm not trying to poo-poo Quickload or anything, I'm just trying to understand....

The Hodgdon site shows the load for a 147gn XTP set at 1.100 OAL with a maximum of 3.6 gn of Titegroup.
Quickload uses a OAL of 1.140 OAL (more case volume, should be safer to use than 1.100) and it is listed as a dangerous load.

Is this a testing variance with Hodgdon's test barrels/data? Or is Quickload that conservative? Just Curious, I see a lot of folks on various sites publishing Quickload data.


On topic, I've always been a big wuss and Lee dippers scare the crap out of me. I even use two separate scales for verifying charge weights (one beam, one digital). Safety is paramount.

For my Xtreme 147's I got the best results using 3.2gn Titegroup @1.130. The 1.140 length didn't chamber well in my CZ.

 

[trophyhunter]

I apologize for the threadjack.

Trophyhunter:

I'm not trying to poo-poo Quickload or anything, I'm just trying to understand....

The Hodgdon site shows the load for a 147gn XTP set at 1.100 OAL with a maximum of 3.6 gn of Titegroup.
Quickload uses a OAL of 1.140 OAL (more case volume, should be safer to use than 1.100) and it is listed as a dangerous load.

Is this a testing variance with Hodgdon's test barrels/data? Or is Quickload that conservative? Just Curious, I see a lot of folks on various sites publishing Quickload data.


On topic, I've always been a big wuss and Lee dippers scare the crap out of me. I even use two separate scales for verifying charge weights (one beam, one digital). Safety is paramount.

For my Xtreme 147's I got the best results using 3.2gn Titegroup @1.130. The 1.140 length didn't chamber well in my CZ.

I would strongly encourage anyone using Hodgdon data to start very low and work up over a chronograph and see for yourself which source is more credible if you have access to QL predictions. I find QL to be very precise, and more often than not QL prediction models are much closer to other powder companies published testing data than Hodgdon's.

I worked as a ballistician formulating and testing commercial powder lots for use in manufacturing and still stay in touch with some of younger guys that are running the labs at various companies marketing cannister grade consumer propellants, QL is one of the primary tools they use in their day to day research and testing regimens. Keep in mind that not a single brand of consumer cannister grade propellant sold by any name or label in the business is actually manufactured by them directly, they are simply packaging and labeling the product for retail sale and there are some discrepancies in the industry regarding lab testing procedures and how much money companies allocate for that sort of thing in house.

As a consumer of cannister grade powders, you should expect to see ongoing changes in published data from powder companies for lot and bullet testing as they receive it from the manufacturer's. Compare published data from companies like Hodgdon to Western Powder for popular loads such as the 9mm Luger and make up your own mind who takes their lab testing programs seriously and who doesn't care to spend the money to do much at all.

One of the benefits of QL software is that it allows the user further insight into how their preferred seating depth for any given powder and bullet combo is really affecting the pressure generated by the finished round, it will also allow you to see the changes that ambient temperature has on peak pressure numbers. Companies that offer cannister grade propellant data have to pick a seating depth, test for pressure and velocity low to high and publish that alone. Imagine the confusion if they took that practice to the next level of publishing data using multiple examples of seating depth's, ambient temperatures etc. with your average person attempting to load ammunition. Reading comprehension is not a strong point with all potential users of published data and the meager results of what gets published certainly reflects the KISS principle.

QL allows you to input critical information used in the prediction models that are essentially unknown variables from published data. What was the ambient temperature in the lab when that recipe was tested, how much deviation was there between the reamer that cut the chamber in the test barrel versus the reamer used to cut the chamber in your firearm of intended use? In your specific sizing die, what is the H20 capacity of the case your loading versus that of the lab? There is an acceptable level of deviation in all cannister grade powders, however slight it is yet another variable that makes published load testing simply a guideline with no further ability to the end user to tailor some of those known variables to reduce margin of error.

When you see some of the warnings on the QL prediction charts that show certain loads as being near maximum or dangerous loads, bear in mind that all of that data is being crunched against the chosen caliber sanction. For an example, you could see QL calling a charge weight on a 9mm Luger spreadsheet as dangerous using the standardized SAMMI pressure ceiling of 35,000 psi and then run the exact same load parameters against the SAMMI sanction of 9mm Luger +P allowing for a 38,500 psi pressure ceiling and the warning would be absent from the previous result.

If you look at these two models, notice the first is the standardized SAMMI 9mm load and the second model is +P, compare the results for charge weights of 6.05 to 6.55 grains on both charts and hopefully that clarifies some of your concerns in what you're seeing posted on the web as conservative prediction models.

Cartridge          : 9 mm Luger (SAAMI)Bullet             : .355, 115, Hornady FMJ/RN ENC 35557
Useable Case Capaci: 8.369 grain H2O = 0.543 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.120 inch = 28.45 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : Accurate No.5


Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !


Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms


-20.0   63     5.04    977     244   19714   4087     76.5    0.523
-18.0   65     5.17   1000     255   20840   4239     77.7    0.510
-16.0   66     5.29   1023     267   22019   4391     78.8    0.498
-14.0   68     5.42   1046     280   23254   4543     79.9    0.486
-12.0   70     5.54   1070     292   24547   4694     81.0    0.473
-10.0   71     5.67   1093     305   25902   4846     82.1    0.461
-08.0   73     5.80   1116     318   27320   4997     83.1    0.449
-06.0   74     5.92   1139     331   28805   5147     84.1    0.438
-04.0   76     6.05   1162     345   30361   5297     85.1    0.427  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   78     6.17   1186     359   31991   5445     86.0    0.417  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   79     6.30   1209     373   33698   5592     87.0    0.407  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   81     6.43   1232     388   35488   5737     87.8    0.397  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   82     6.55   1255     402   37364   5881     88.7    0.387  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   84     6.68   1278     417   39331   6024     89.5    0.378  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   85     6.80   1302     433   41394   6163     90.3    0.370  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   87     6.93   1325     448   43558   6300     91.1    0.361  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Cartridge          : 9 mm Luger +P (SAAMI)Bullet             : .355, 115, Hornady FMJ/RN ENC 35557
Useable Case Capaci: 8.369 grain H2O = 0.543 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.120 inch = 28.45 mm
Barrel Length      : 4.0 inch = 101.6 mm
Powder             : Accurate No.5


Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !


Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms


-20.0   63     5.04    977     244   19714   4087     76.5    0.523
-18.0   65     5.17   1000     255   20840   4239     77.7    0.510
-16.0   66     5.29   1023     267   22019   4391     78.8    0.498
-14.0   68     5.42   1046     280   23254   4543     79.9    0.486
-12.0   70     5.54   1070     292   24547   4694     81.0    0.473
-10.0   71     5.67   1093     305   25902   4846     82.1    0.461
-08.0   73     5.80   1116     318   27320   4997     83.1    0.449
-06.0   74     5.92   1139     331   28805   5147     84.1    0.438
-04.0   76     6.05   1162     345   30361   5297     85.1    0.427
-02.0   78     6.17   1186     359   31991   5445     86.0    0.417
+00.0   79     6.30   1209     373   33698   5592     87.0    0.407  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   81     6.43   1232     388   35488   5737     87.8    0.397  ! Near Maximum !
+04.0   82     6.55   1255     402   37364   5881     88.7    0.387  ! Near Maximum !
+06.0   84     6.68   1278     417   39331   6024     89.5    0.378  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   85     6.80   1302     433   41394   6163     90.3    0.370  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0   87     6.93   1325     448   43558   6300     91.1    0.361  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[Tydeeh22]

I run 4.3 grains of tg under a 115 grain round nose. Peppy.