CHOICES for individual health, not mandates -Masks, overreach protest

[bwframe]

I think you have been out-worded jamil! (albeit with a copy/paste)

I haven't even got to read the comentary yet. Busy laughing at our freind talking of filibustering.

 

[jamil]

Fair enough. You seem more skeptical than I am, about everything. You want scientific proof for everything, I believed there indeed was a conspiracy to spike Trump before there was much hard evidence of it. I'm amazed as much evidence was able to be dug out as has been. There comes a point where, when too many random factors align, I am willing to postulate some sort of underlying framework. I agree with you that there is not some Democratic version of SPECTRE calling all the shots, but I do think there is a cabal that helped the current situation spin up and occasionally gives the gyroscope a nudge to keep it pointed in the 'right' direction. I doubt they can clearly calculate the eventual outcome but I believe they think they can make use of it

Rule 39: There is no such thing as a coincidence

Well, look man. Because one of the things that I've accepted into belief is the idea that we are 99% worldview/instinct and 1% reason, I want to exploit that 1% for everything it's worth. To me separating out reality from simply belief to the extent that I can has become a top priority. So yeah. I'm skeptical of everything. I'm skeptical of my own beliefs. I'd really like to disprove that 99% thing. Having read about it, it just keeps proving itself in all encounters. It makes things predictable. Chip? On a given topic I know what his position will be. Same for you. Same for many people on INGO. The people who tend to be more emotional, that's harder to predict.

It's not that I want scientific proof for everything. It's that I want enough evidence to give me some reasonable confidence that the idea I'm considering is true. I understand that proof not always or even rarely possible. And so rather than committing my belief to something where sufficient evidence isn't possible, I'll try to form a suspicion or likelihood around what I think might be real.

So wearing masks. I kinda think it's reasonable to believe that if the whole droplet theory is true to a significant extent, and the mask theory is true about preventing spread at the source, I think I'm on solid enough ground to suspect that masks are useful within a limited scope that I'll wear one in those limited circumstances. I certainly don't share the confidence of other people posting on this topic. And I have next to zero confidence in the talk of conspiracies.

Some people are confident in the work of other people. Well. About that. Experts in the field said that people should go out and protest. They said that ya, sure. It increases the risk of causing a surge in cases. And **** it if it does. It's your right. Even though they were against religious people exercising their constitutional right to assemble. And they didn't respect the rights of people to protest the shutdown like they did the right to protest "systemic racism", another belief that requires faith. That confirms to me that the world view almost always beats rational thinking. They're applying their skills as experts to support their own perspective of the world. So I'm confident enough to say that the totality of evidence makes me suspect that masks could be effective. Enough that I'm willing to wear one in narrow circumstances.

So I guess to that extent, my confidence isn't high enough to commit my belief to it. But my suspicions about the use of masks tilts towards using them.

 

[jamil]

I haven't even got to read the comentary yet. Busy laughing at our freind talking of filibustering.

Probably should read the commentary then. It might be informative. I kinda suspect it won't be though.

 

[jamil]

Maybe the goal should be agreement and not surrender. I can agree that it makes sense there is some small, non-zero effect from wearing an improvised cloth mask. I would like to see honest acknowledgement that the effect is indeed likely quite small, when the argument shifts from what is quantified to 'no matter how small the effect is, shouldn't you do it out of consideration for your fellow man' I'm out

And to steal their argument, even if the push for mask wearing is only adding to the hysteria a little bit, shouldn't we resist it out of consideration for preserving the liberty of our fellow man?

Disingenuous argument is disingenuous. Think of the children! If it saves one life! It's worse than appeal to authority, it's appeal to emotion

I think there would need to be some credible, trustworthy evidence from a source both sides would tend to accept that would say how much or little masks help. I think that measurement would be effective R0. From a source I trust, that would be quite informative to me. I could commit my belief for something that sure.

 

[Rubix]

I think there would need to be some credible, trustworthy evidence from a source both sides would tend to accept that would say how much or little masks help. I think that measurement would be effective R0.

This will never happen, it's what happens in pure unadulterated non-political orientated academic/scientific debates. This is what irks me, that it's a political hot-button issue driving it. It didn't have to be, but here we are.

https://foldingathome.org/covid-19/

 

[Tombs]

Well, yeah. N95 would be effective on both ends because it's actually capable of filtering a lot of the virus that would have gone into the air otherwise. To me it's reasonable to believe that cloth masks could be at least sufficiently helpful to stop droplets. If it's true that droplets are the primary way the virus spreads, and it's true that even cloth masks can stop droplets from going from the source out into crowded spaces, it's reasonable to believe that wearing cloth masks could be effective at reducing the spread in those narrow circumstances.

So how much do cloth masks stop? I dunno. Some. Maybe a lot. Maybe a little. Try coughing into a dry mask and feel how wet the inside of the mask is. That's collectively moisture from "droplets" that did not get out. Throw pebbles through a chain link fence and see how many pebbles get through. I've done that. Nearly all of them go through. A chain link fence isn't all that effective at stopping pebbles when they're thrown through the links. Okay. Throw some pebble-filled dirt clots through the chain link fence. How many pebbles got through? Not very many. Same principle. I think. But I'm not a scientist. So I don't know how analogous that is to masks, droplets, virus particles and infection.

The part where I tend to agree with you guys most is that I don't see a justification for being so confident in the efficacy of masks, that we should shame or force people into wearing them. Where I disagree with Dusty88 and Hough, and some others, is that they claim they don't want government to force you to wear masks, but they seem quite okay if it's done through private shaming and coercion. They're not merely advocating that you wear a mask voluntarily. When they talk about encouraging businesses to make you wear them, it's advocating social shaming. I think social shaming is a poor tactic. Advocacy should be about challenging beliefs, and not coercion, however veiled.

The whole issue here is that cloth masks have no standards. Could be fishnet, could be something that literally suffocates you and stops everything. So it's hard to really quantify what that actually equates to.

On the other hand, respirators have ratings, even if they aren't capable of completely stopping the virus, to be sold under that rating they must meet a standard.
You'd think it'd be common sense that ratings are necessary if we're going to discuss efficacy.

As far as the post, it was a response to you in one of the mask argument threads, about me. Tried digging, but that's a nightmare.

 

[cosermann]

Maybe this "sciency" stuff will be helpful. Maybe not. Here it goes:

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary...f-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

 

[BugI02]

Well, look man. Because one of the things that I've accepted into belief is the idea that we are 99% worldview/instinct and 1% reason, I want to exploit that 1% for everything it's worth. To me separating out reality from simply belief to the extent that I can has become a top priority. So yeah. I'm skeptical of everything. I'm skeptical of my own beliefs. I'd really like to disprove that 99% thing. Having read about it, it just keeps proving itself in all encounters. It makes things predictable. Chip? On a given topic I know what his position will be. Same for you. Same for many people on INGO. The people who tend to be more emotional, that's harder to predict.

It's not that I want scientific proof for everything. It's that I want enough evidence to give me some reasonable confidence that the idea I'm considering is true. I understand that proof not always or even rarely possible. And so rather than committing my belief to something where sufficient evidence isn't possible, I'll try to form a suspicion or likelihood around what I think might be real.

So wearing masks. I kinda think it's reasonable to believe that if the whole droplet theory is true to a significant extent, and the mask theory is true about preventing spread at the source, I think I'm on solid enough ground to suspect that masks are useful within a limited scope that I'll wear one in those limited circumstances. I certainly don't share the confidence of other people posting on this topic. And I have next to zero confidence in the talk of conspiracies.

Some people are confident in the work of other people. Well. About that. Experts in the field said that people should go out and protest. They said that ya, sure. It increases the risk of causing a surge in cases. And **** it if it does. It's your right. Even though they were against religious people exercising their constitutional right to assemble. And they didn't respect the rights of people to protest the shutdown like they did the right to protest "systemic racism", another belief that requires faith. That confirms to me that the world view almost always beats rational thinking. They're applying their skills as experts to support their own perspective of the world. So I'm confident enough to say that the totality of evidence makes me suspect that masks could be effective. Enough that I'm willing to wear one in narrow circumstances.

So I guess to that extent, my confidence isn't high enough to commit my belief to it. But my suspicions about the use of masks tilts towards using them.

The more you reveal, the more I wonder why you aren't a devotee of Scott Adams

https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/07/18/how-persuaders-see-the-world/
How Persuaders See the World

When you are trained in the ways of persuasion, you start seeing three types of people in the world. I’ll call them Rational People, Word-Thinkers, and Persuaders. Their qualities look like this:

Rational People: Use data and reason to arrive at truth. (This group is mostly imaginary.)

Word-Thinkers: Use labels, word definitions, and analogies to create the illusion of rational thinking. This group is 99% of the world.

Persuaders: Use simplicity, repetition, emotion, habit, aspirations, visual communication, and other tools of persuasion to program other people and themselves. This group is about 1% of the population and effectively control the word-thinkers of the world.

If you’re a trained scientist, engineer, or other technical person, you might use data and reason sometimes, especially while others are watching and checking your work. But off-duty – and when it comes to anything important – we’re all irrational creatures who believe we are rational. At least that’s how trained persuaders see the world.

You can easily spot word-thinkers when they talk about politics. Their go-to strategy involves identifying enemies and fitting them into whatever category matches their biases and cognitive dissonance. Look for this form:

 

[jamil]

The more you reveal, the more I wonder why you aren't a devotee of Scott Adams

https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/07/18/how-persuaders-see-the-world/
How Persuaders See the World

It’s possible we’ve read some of the same books.

 

[phylodog]

Hated doing it but I did wear a mask yesterday so that I could support a few kids during their 4H competition. I bought one thinking it might be more tolerable but it wasn't. Feels like trying to go to sleep with your head under the covers which a cannot stand. I did find this interesting though, did someone say conspiracy?

 

[phylodog]

Hmmm....RN138136.....

If you add 1 +3 then subtract 8, add 1, subtract 3 and add 6 you get zero which represents the efficiency of this mask at stopping the Covid virus.

LOLOLOL

 

[JettaKnight]

Hated doing it but I did wear a mask yesterday so that I could support a few kids during their 4H competition. I bought one thinking it might be more tolerable but it wasn't. Feels like trying to go to sleep with your head under the covers which a cannot stand. I did find this interesting though, did someone say conspiracy?

That's my preferred method of sleeping - of course, I have a CPAP machine.


As to the "made in China" my guess is this is a drop in the bucket compared to all the exports lost due to consumer confidence, closed stores, etc.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

That's my preferred method of sleeping - of course, I have a CPAP machine.


As to the "made in China" my guess is this is a drop in the bucket compared to all the exports lost due to consumer confidence, closed stores, etc.

The only time I could tolerate that was if I was camping in near zero degree temps. I like breathing cool air.

 

[phylodog]

Re-breathing my own air would be the number one way someone could torture me without leaving a mark. Ick

 

[JettaKnight]

The only time I could tolerate that was if I was camping in near zero degree temps. I like breathing cool air.

Set the CPAP on an ice block.

My wife [STRIKE]likes[/STRIKE] needs fans on. I'm of the persuasion that we have walls and a roof so we don't have to have air blowing all around us.

Re-breathing my own air would be the number one way someone could torture me without leaving a mark. Ick

Yeah, I was shopping and the mask was constantly reminding me I had pizza with every burp.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Re-breathing my own air would be the number one way someone could torture me without leaving a mark. Ick

Exactly! Even when it was super cold out I would still have to come up for air for a little while.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Set the CPAP on an ice block.

My wife [STRIKE]likes[/STRIKE] needs fans on. I'm of the persuasion that we have walls and a roof so we don't have to have air blowing all around us.



Yeah, I was shopping and the mask was constantly reminding me I had pizza with every burp.

My ceiling fan in the bedroom runs 24/7. It gets reversed at the season change (Heat to AC) and gets set to high in AC season. I don't envy you having to wear a CPAP mask. I don't know that I could even sleep at all if I had to do that. I think it would require heavy sedation.

 

[JettaKnight]

My ceiling fan in the bedroom runs 24/7. It gets reversed at the season change (Heat to AC) and gets set to high in AC season. I don't envy you having to wear a CPAP mask. I don't know that I could even sleep at all if I had to do that. I think it would require heavy sedation.

It's heavenly bliss, I tell you.

 

[bwframe]

Hated doing it but I did wear a mask yesterday so that I could support a few kids during their 4H competition. I bought one thinking it might be more tolerable but it wasn't. Feels like trying to go to sleep with your head under the covers which a cannot stand. I did find this interesting though, did someone say conspiracy?

First time wearing a mask for me yesterday also.

Sign on the door where I was delivering. It's a gov't mandate in Monroe County, so I was prepared.

I wore one of those neck gator sort of things. Didn't have it on long, but was fairly happy with it. Once in place, no adjustment needed, unlike most of the ear bungie masks that people are constantly fiddling with.

 

[OutdoorDad]

Wear a freaking mask if you're in public.

anyone who disagrees with this concept won’t mind if I have poor muzzle discipline at the range, right.

ok to sweep you if I know it’s not loaded? Or if it is loaded, that if I shoot you it would be purely accidental; unlikely, and probably survivable?