Christians lets discuss something....

[jontheturboguy]

.....about the book of Revelations.

I have two theories. One, the book talks about two "Beasts."

I am very quickly I am becoming a believer that Obama is indeed the first beast.

Second, Im starting to think that if he is the first beast, then....

This blind sided me today at about 5:15 on the Glenn Beck show.

"13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

Any body see what's going on here? We now have what, 4 "Czars" coming about?

This struck me as having 3 more "Czars" to go, making a total of 7.

-Car Czar
-Food Czar
-Health Czar
-Energy Czar
-Income/Regulatory Czar
-??? Czar
-??? Czar

Discuss? Ideas?

 

[henktermaat]

Eh... you don't want to go down that road...

 

[Fletch]

I'm of the opinion that much of what is preached over the Book of Revelations completely misses the point of Christianity.

 

[jontheturboguy]

Eh... you don't want to go down that road...

Why?

I'm of the opinion that much of what is preached over the Book of Revelations completely misses the point of Christianity.

Can you explain?

 

[henktermaat]

I'm of the opinion that much of what is preached over the Book of Revelations completely misses the point of Christianity.

Most of Revelations certainly doesn't fall under the essentials of Christianity, and therefore discussion and disagreement is fine.

Why?...

Because we already decided that George W was the beast. and before that, Clinton, or Hitler. And before that, etc.

All the while, Emperor Nero was the guy John wrote about in Revelations.

Who Is the Antichrist?

For centuries Christians have speculated about the identity of the Antichrist. Likely candidates have included European monarchs and popes of the Roman Catholic Church. Major international crises of the twentieth century provided other prime suspects such as Adolf Hitler, Mikhail Gorbachev, Saddam Hussein, and Osama bin Laden. American president George W. Bush and British prime minister Tony Blair have also surfaced on the lists of prophecy pundits.

So, who is the Antichrist? Rather than joining in this sensationalistic game of pin-the-tail-on-the-Antichrist, Christians need only go to Scripture to find the answer. The apostle John exposed the identity of antichrist when he wrote, “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist––he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 2:22–23 NIV). In his second epistle, John gives a similar warning: “Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist” (2 John 7 NIV). John did not reserve the title “antichrist” for any one particular individual; rather, he taught that anyone who denies the incarnation, messianic role, or deity of Jesus is the antichrist.

John did indicate in the book of Revelation, however, that one individual would personify evil in a unique way as the ultimate archetype of all the types of antichrist. Instead of referring to this individual as the Antichrist, John referred to him as “the Beast.” So, who is the Beast of Revelation? Again we must properly interpret Scripture to find the answer.

First, John explains to his first-century readers that with “wisdom” and “insight” they could “calculate the number of the Beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666” (Rev. 13:18 NIV). It stands to reason, therefore, that the individual John had in mind must have been alive during the first century. No amount of wisdom or insight would have enabled first-century Christians to identify a far-future individual. It would have been cruel and dangerously misleading for John to suggest to first-century Christians that they could identify the Beast if in fact the Beast was a twenty-first-century institution or individual.

Furthermore, an examination of the historical context in which John was writing reveals that John was appealing to a widely used method of associating each letter of the alphabet with a corresponding numerical value. This process is known as gematria. According to gematria, six hundred sixty-six is the sum value of the Hebrew letters (not recognizable to the Roman authorities of John’s day) that spell the name of the first-century Roman Emperor whom the great nineteenth-century biblical scholar Milton Terry called “the veriest incarnation of wickedness”: Nero Caesar.

Ancient accounts of Nero’s life, most notably that recorded in The Twelve Caesars by second-century Roman historian Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, identify Nero as a desperately wicked individual who grossly violated each of the Ten Commandments through a long litany of disgusting demonstrations of depravity. Included among his appalling atrocities were his castration of a young boy named Sporus whom he then married publicly, his persecution of the Christians whom he had dressed in tar jackets and put on stakes and then burned at night to light the streets, his demand to be worshiped as God, and the brutal murders of some of his closest family members, including his mother Agrippina, his wives Octavia and Poppaea, and Poppaea’s young son, Rufrius Crispinius, whom Nero had drowned during a fishing trip for allegedly playing childhood games in which he pretended to be the Emperor.

Finally, Nero is rightly identified as the Beast of Revelation––the archetypal Antichrist––because of the unique and horrible quality of the “great tribulation” he ignited. The horror of the great tribulation included not only the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but the persecution of the apostles and prophets who penned the Scriptures and formed the foundation of the Christian church of which Christ Himself was the chief cornerstone. Thus, Nero and the great tribulation he instigated are the archetypes for every antichrist and tribulation that follow before we experience the reality of our own resurrection at the second coming of Christ.

— Hank Hanegraaff

 

[D-Ric902]

America is not a factor in Revelation, that should tell you something.

 

[henktermaat]

America is not a factor in Revelation, that should tell you something.

^^ This. ^^

 

[Lucas156]

supposedly it is not a factor but something about an eagle is in Revelations I do believe

 

[haldir]

I thought we were up to 30 some czars.
I always wondered if the US was the Babylon talked about in Revelations.

 

[jblomenberg16]

.....about the book of Revelations.

I have two theories. One, the book talks about two "Beasts."

I am very quickly I am becoming a believer that Obama is indeed the first beast.

Second, Im starting to think that if he is the first beast, then....

This blind sided me today at about 5:15 on the Glenn Beck show.

"13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

Any body see what's going on here? We now have what, 4 "Czars" coming about?

This struck me as having 3 more "Czars" to go, making a total of 7.

-Car Czar
-Food Czar
-Health Czar
-Energy Czar
-Income/Regulatory Czar
-??? Czar
-??? Czar

Discuss? Ideas?

I know a few folks have already weighed in. I think this is certainly a good topic of dicussion, if for nothing else, to help us examine our Christian Faith, and its basis in the Bible.

Several years ago, one of my college room mates and I did a Bible study on the Book of Revelations. There are some interesting things in there, than when interpreted quite literally, certainly seem to line up with current events.


The correlation with the Heads & Czars could certainly be a good fit. I've often wondered about references made to "The Great Prostitute." It could be construed to describe the USA.

• The Statue of Liberty is a Female Figure
• Our country is often like a prostitute, our services being solicited by others, like NATO (aka the Pimp), used around the world, and in return we get very little payment, and often very little respect.
• Like a Prostitute, we often try to be all things to all people in an attempt to search for clients / relationships

That is a bit of a stretch, I know, but it does show that each of us can interpret the language very litterally.

I constantly find comfort in 3 things when I think about the possiblity that the End Times may take place within my lifetime.

1) John 3:16
2) The understanding that the End Times have been underway since Jesus Ascended into Heaven after his time on earth was done (shortly after Easter).
3) Matthew 25:13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (NIV)"


There is a reference to the Wings of an Eagle in Revelation. The Eagle transports the woman into the wilderness. More here...The Wings of the Great Eagle

 

[Lucas156]

Something about something being plucked from the lion(Great Britain) was transformed into an eagle(represtenting USA) ? We did come from Britain.

 

[LPMan59]

research apocalyptic literature. The Book of RevelatioN (not plural, sorry drives me nuts) was written for Christians in a few Asia Minor communities. The US has absolutely nothing to do with it. There's a reason why this Book was heavily debated when deciding on the Canon

 

[MyGlockRocks19]

I work with a guy that is just about convinced that Obama is the Antichrist. While I don't agree with him theologically....

 

[edsinger]

Hank Hanegraaff

I have studied this ALOT, NERO was not the Antichrist, the Jewish people are still looking for Messiah, they will accept the Antichrist. This is a Future event.

I am not premillennialist but I have never and I mean never got a decent explanation for the Two witnesses.

Hank Hanegraaff has never given one, the amillennialist always leave that one detail out.

Is America not involved in end times prophecy? I think it is and the whore of Babylon is my leading candidate. We are leaving our heritage and will therefore lose God's blessings.....when I don't know but it seems more and more likely.

I have an idea that I reached years ago and I study that now. reading the Bible must be taken in context to the establishment of the cannon and what language the book was written in..

Example for you to ponder.....Christ did not speak Greek, he probably spoke Aramaic. Just imagine if and I mean IF, the New Testament was written in Hebrew first? What was lost in the translation to Greek? Konine Greek even.

Here is a hint, if one takes the 'Greek' and converts it to Hebrew, and then translates to English....you get some eye openers.....

Another Example to Ponder, The Book of Enoch (Aramaic version) was considered Canon (I use this term because there is no other to describe what I am trying to convey here) in Jesus's time. It was quoted by Jude and 2nd Peter.....Why was it not included in the modern Canon of 500AD?


Ask yourself this and then read it, then reread this thread again......

 

[flightsimmer]

First off, the book of Revelation was given to John the beloved on the island of Patmos by Jesus Christ in the Spirit. John was told to write down the things he saw and heard so that his followers would know what to expect in the coming days and years and that he would be with them in the coming trials that would befall them.
These things concerned only the church (group of followers) that Jesus gave his life for when he died upon the cross for our sins. It is not intended to be a prophesy of things to come in world history, only the things that concern His church that were to come.
The beast and the false prophet that were mentioned are the soon (at that time) to be coming Roman Catholic church, the great whore and that false prophet, Protestantism, that would deceive many. The Pope is not the Vicar of the Son of God, he is as much a sinner as anyone who is not saved.
Jesus said that He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He is the one and only Head of His church and He alone directs it through his Holy Spirit. As Jesus died on the cross He said "IT IS FINISHED". He had completed the work that His Father had given Him to do.
"The Antichrist"
1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come (plural), even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us (Gods church), but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
KJV
This simply means that there are many antichrist and more will come in an attempt to corrupt and destoy the chuch of God but they will not prevail.
If you are not for Christ then you are antichrist. It's just that simple. No mystery here.
But for those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, the Bible will remain a mystery to them. Jesus said "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you". I have always been amazed at how God can hide his truth from an unbeliever even though it is right in front of his face.
"The two witnesses" are the Bible (the word of God) and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[Fletch]

These things concerned only the church (group of followers) that Jesus gave his life for when he died upon the cross for our sins. It is not intended to be a prophesy of things to come in world history, only the things that concern His church that were to come.

This statement, and this one:

The beast and the false prophet that were mentioned are the soon (at that time) to be coming Roman Catholic church, the great whore and that false prophet, Protestantism, that would deceive many.

...appear to be in conflict. The Protestant Reformation didn't happen for another 1600 years.

 

[hornadylnl]

what is your opinion on rapture and tribulation regarding the end times?

First off, the book of Revelation was given to John the beloved on the island of Patmos by Jesus Christ in the Spirit. John was told to write down the things he saw and heard so that his followers would know what to expect in the coming days and years and that he would be with them in the coming trials that would befall them.
These things concerned only the church (group of followers) that Jesus gave his life for when he died upon the cross for our sins. It is not intended to be a prophesy of things to come in world history, only the things that concern His church that were to come.
The beast and the false prophet that were mentioned are the soon (at that time) to be coming Roman Catholic church, the great whore and that false prophet, Protestantism, that would deceive many. The Pope is not the Vicar of the Son of God, he is as much a sinner as anyone who is not saved.
Jesus said that He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He is the one and only Head of His church and He alone directs it through his Holy Spirit. As Jesus died on the cross He said "IT IS FINISHED". He had completed the work that His Father had given Him to do.
"The Antichrist"
1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come (plural), even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us (Gods church), but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
KJV
This simply means that there are many antichrist and more will come in an attempt to corrupt and destoy the chuch of God but they will not prevail.
If you are not for Christ then you are antichrist. It's just that simple. No mystery here.
But for those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, the Bible will remain a mystery to them. Jesus said "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all of these things shall be added unto you". I have always been amazed at how God can hide his truth from an unbeliever even though it is right in front of his face.
"The two witnesses" are the Bible (the word of God) and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

 

[flightsimmer]

The Protestant Reformation didn't happen for another 1600 years.

But it did happen, as he said it would.

 

[flightsimmer]

what is your opinion on the rapture and tribulation regarding the end times?

My opinion does not count.
"rapture" The word of God does not address any such thing.
"tribulation" Is what the chuch would endure here on earth.

 

[jblomenberg16]

The Protestant Reformation didn't happen for another 1600 years.

But it did happen, as he said it would.

I think this thread is going in a good direction, so don't want to derail.

As a Protestant (Lutheran, so really the original Protestant denomination), am I in fact decieved and therefore one of the antichrists? And if so, what is my fate?

Or am I an heir to eternal life, because of the simple facts stated so clearly in John 3:16, and the fact that I have been baptized and believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior - making me a Christian.

I don't think this is what you were intending to say in your post, but it does seem to raise my eyebrows a bit.