Church Carry...authorization!

[Indy_Guy_77]

Good news on the Home Front:

As I'm sure that many of you recall, I'm fond of posting in the "Can we carry at church" threads. Most of what I post in response is usually along the lines of "yes, you CAN carry at a church in Indiana as long as the church doesn't have a licensed day care or run any kind of preschool/kindergarten/school out of it."

Well, my church (Mt. Pleasant Christian Church Mount Pleasant Christian Church) has recently asked for "volunteers" from the congregation to organize, plan, and then be a part of a safety & security "team". There were already several active and retired LEO (including at least one Fed) involved in this in the past.

In the first of our organizational meeting, I brought up the fact that in the eyes of the Indiana Code, schools were off limits and, as such, MPCC was off limits due to its school...due to my not being LEO. (Needless to say, some eyeballs around the table got quite big at this statement) I also went on to say that there's a provision for exemption on this in the IC that, with authorization, would allow non-LEO to carry on the church/school property.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

Emphasis added by me...

They asked me to provide them the relevant Code and they definitely seemed agreeable to granting this authorization to us non-LEO who were volunteering be a part of the Safety & Security team.

And for those wondering... No, I don't have any dilusions of grandeur. Nor am I a "wannabe" LEO. I just consider myself to be a "protector" of sorts; and if I can assist our church in its efforts to keep things safe, then I would like to do so.

-J-

 

[Stainer]

I think that is a pretty cool program they have going on and good luck with it. Hopefully, there won't be any activity that you will ever have to worry about, but if there is, your church will be ready.

 

[CarmelHP]

They asked me to provide them the relevant Code and they definitely seemed agreeable to granting this authorization to us non-LEO who were volunteering be a part of the Safety & Security team.

-J-

If they were asking you to volunteer with the understanding, preferably explicit, that you were to be armed, I would say that's authorization.

 

[Joe Williams]

It is a good program. It is worth bearing in mind that a similar program, with a volunteer safety & security member, prevented a mass shooting at a church in Colorado.

 

[bigg cheese]

Even if my church did do something like this, I'd be hard-pressed into carrying at all. I've worked in our Children's Church for 10+ years and I am nothing short of a human jungle-gym for most of the kids. I have a hard enough time dealing with parents when their children are more than just a little unruly, and I have to physically plant them in a chair away from the others . Just think what they'd do if they found out I was packing .

 

[ChrisK]

I do this for the church I attend. BTW, it is a school also. I would have a letter from the superintendent of the church's school/daycare giving his/her permission. Indy_Guy_77, I carry your EMP while providing the security.

 

[CulpeperMM]

Well, my church (Mt. Pleasant Christian Church Mount Pleasant Christian Church) has recently asked for "volunteers" from the congregation to organize, plan, and then be a part of a safety & security "team". There were already several active and retired LEO (including at least one Fed) involved in this in the past.

this is great!
I have discussed something similar to this with some deacons at my church as well.

we are not getting the same traction you have =(

good luck

 

[colt45er]

I am a a friendly person and therefor when I see old friends they usually get a hug, unless its a guy then a handshake will work.

Most of my close friends know I carry but some dont and most people I go to church with don't.

So there I was....missing trip meeting at my old church. I was a few minutes late to the meeting but after words before leaving I was talking with a group. One lady came to give me a hug and her hand/arm went right to where my tucked xdm was. My first thought was oh crap...then she pulled back gave me a smile and patted her purse!!

sorry, didn't mean to thread jack.

I used to go to a church that had a security team. It was understood that we were not LEO's or anything close, just a group that kept an eye on the halls, parking lots, kids etc. Some people didn't even like the idea of having an unarmed security team so firearms were of huge depate.

It was later concluded that we could carry and were given permission since there was a school attached.

 

[agentl074]

The only issue I see is liability. I don't know what kind of insurances they carry; you shouldn't need to be bonded since you won't be officially titled "armed security officer" - but as an authorized safety member - however, there is still that insurance issue that I am uncertain about.

 

[Buckaroo]

Even if my church did do something like this, I'd be hard-pressed into carrying at all. I've worked in our Children's Church for 10+ years and I am nothing short of a human jungle-gym for most of the kids. I have a hard enough time dealing with parents when their children are more than just a little unruly, and I have to physically plant them in a chair away from the others . Just think what they'd do if they found out I was packing .

Good time for a SmartCarry holster. Set up correctly this is comfortable and very concealable. I know because I have worked in a number of churches as a leader/teacher of adults and children.

Buckaroo

 

[ChrisK]

The only insurance requirement that we had was that a firearm safety course be taken by any person involved. I am a NRA instructor and held the course about 4 weeks ago.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Carmel_HP... I understand your sentiment, and I also know that you're a barrister. I've asked the church folks to PLEASE contact their counsel and get their opinions of the dealio.

There are still some non-LEO on the team that choose not to carry even though they have their LTCH, and there are a few guys that don't have their LTCH and don't want to have anything to do with firearms. Fine by me.

The "main" focus of the group will be to secure the facilities, make sure doors are locked, protect the kids, etc etc. Protection of whoever it is on stage is a big concern for the main pastor (duh?) as well, but probably won't be Mission #1.

I'm still not going to carry at the church until I've been given an OK that I'm authorized as a security-type person. At least until my name's on paper as being a security-type person! I cannot afford to be caught in the middle of this particular legal debate should something happen.

I definitely 100% hope that nothing happens. Ever. But if it does, I want to be ready physically AND legally.

-J-

 

[agentl074]

The only insurance requirement that we had was that a firearm safety course be taken by any person involved. I am a NRA instructor and held the course about 4 weeks ago.

Right on! Well that answers the liability/insurance issue then. Thanks

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Yeah, the liability issue was brought up. Most of the cops on the team have said that if ANYTHING happens, even from a hands-on removal of a wacko from the building to, God forbid, an active shooter...there WILL be lawsuits filed.

They're going to look into how a security volunteer will be "covered" by the church's insurance (and maybe even purchase addt'l) for a volunteer acting in their capacity as that volunteer.

The whole ball game is a big cluster, actually, due to all the laws, rules, and regulations that there are.

It's a work in progress!

And ChrisK, glad you still like the EMP.

 

[Sailor]

Good job, wish more churches would actively pursue this.

Indy, I got the impression from another thread, that your focus was protecting yourself and your family, you in a pine box would not do your wife any good? I think its great you are stepping up and taking this on, I was just a little surprised.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Good job, wish more churches would actively pursue this.

Indy, I got the impression from another thread, that your focus was protecting yourself and your family, you in a pine box would not do your wife any good? I think its great you are stepping up and taking this on, I was just a little surprised.

Ohhh... Good one.

And you're right. Me in a pine box doesn't do anyone any good.

I also believe that I said that it's all situational.

This at church is a far cry from me being any kind of uniformed security guard. It's more of a "I can suppliment the attending LEO if needed"

Plus, the main focus is going to be on in-general building security, keeping the kiddos safe and accounted for, emergency preparedness (tornado during church, etc).

And no matter the situation, actively putting my life in greater danger doesn't do anyone any good.

I also think that an armed robbery at an establishment where I'm a patron is a little different than a wacko coming down the aisle to try and take out our minister. It may be a personal mental difference I have, but to me, different none the less.

But I thank you for reminding me of my own words. Just more for me to think and pray about.

-J-

 

[MontereyC6]

Good news on the Home Front:

As I'm sure that many of you recall, I'm fond of posting in the "Can we carry at church" threads. Most of what I post in response is usually along the lines of "yes, you CAN carry at a church in Indiana as long as the church doesn't have a licensed day care or run any kind of preschool/kindergarten/school out of it."

Well, my church (Mt. Pleasant Christian Church Mount Pleasant Christian Church) has recently asked for "volunteers" from the congregation to organize, plan, and then be a part of a safety & security "team". There were already several active and retired LEO (including at least one Fed) involved in this in the past.

In the first of our organizational meeting, I brought up the fact that in the eyes of the Indiana Code, schools were off limits and, as such, MPCC was off limits due to its school...due to my not being LEO. (Needless to say, some eyeballs around the table got quite big at this statement) I also went on to say that there's a provision for exemption on this in the IC that, with authorization, would allow non-LEO to carry on the church/school property.

IC 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) A:
(A) federal;
(B) state; or
(C) local;
law enforcement officer.
(2) A person who has been employed or authorized by:
(A) a school; or
(B) another person who owns or operates property being used by a school for a school function;
to act as a security guard, perform or participate in a school function, or participate in any other activity authorized by a school.
(3) A person who:
(A) may legally possess a firearm; and
(B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.

Emphasis added by me...

They asked me to provide them the relevant Code and they definitely seemed agreeable to granting this authorization to us non-LEO who were volunteering be a part of the Safety & Security team.

And for those wondering... No, I don't have any dilusions of grandeur. Nor am I a "wannabe" LEO. I just consider myself to be a "protector" of sorts; and if I can assist our church in its efforts to keep things safe, then I would like to do so.

-J-

Interesting. I was at the same meeting and I still haven't been given authorization. I sent one of the gentlemen leaders the same law and code and still haven't heard anything back? I also spoke to one of them during services yesterday and wasn't given a direct answer. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.

 

[Sailor]

Ohhh... Good one.

And you're right. Me in a pine box doesn't do anyone any good.

I also believe that I said that it's all situational.

This at church is a far cry from me being any kind of uniformed security guard. It's more of a "I can suppliment the attending LEO if needed"

Plus, the main focus is going to be on in-general building security, keeping the kiddos safe and accounted for, emergency preparedness (tornado during church, etc).

And no matter the situation, actively putting my life in greater danger doesn't do anyone any good.

I also think that an armed robbery at an establishment where I'm a patron is a little different than a wacko coming down the aisle to try and take out our minister. It may be a personal mental difference I have, but to me, different none the less.

But I thank you for reminding me of my own words. Just more for me to think and pray about.

-J-

You are right, for many Church IS family. We are more apt to protect those we care about.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Interesting. I was at the same meeting and I still haven't been given authorization. I sent one of the gentlemen leaders the same law and code and still haven't heard anything back? I also spoke to one of them during services yesterday and wasn't given a direct answer. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.

I had an email from Alan just a little while ago. He told me that they're checking with both their counsel and insurance folks.

That's all I have for now.

Nice meeting you the other day.

-J-

 

[MontereyC6]

I had an email from Alan just a little while ago. He told me that they're checking with both their counsel and insurance folks.

That's all I have for now.

Nice meeting you the other day.

-J-

It was great meeting you too. Nothing like meeting another INGO member at church. I emailed the info to Mark and talked to him yesterday as well. I have a feeling they are going to do some back stepping once they find out what all is involved. If my memory serves me right, I think there were only 2, maybe 3 LEO's that were present at the meeting? There were several retired, including the FBI guy. From my understand, the retired LEO's have the same laws we do, so "technically" if they haven't been "authorized" by the church, they'd be breaking the law. This should be interesting.