Church Security Fail

[WebSnyper]

Agreed. Suicide vests are such a difficult thing to eliminate without wands and checkpoints. Even then, somebody is gonna die

Agreed... the check point then becomes the choke point.

 

[thunderchicken]

The church I attend started forming a security team, we had some written plans and individual requirements for training etc. We sought input from other churches, an attorney. After we had that in place we had another attorney look at our plans and he brought up some issues. The biggest issue was if the church was going to "require" any training it needs to not only be documented but also the church needs to pay for it...all of it. And you need to have standards for aapproved guns for the armed personnel, keep records of training, and have a qualification standard, and you need to have approved ammunition types etc. We were advised that by having requirements your church will carry the liability and that will impact their insurance and it is next to impossible to find insurance when you say you have an armed security team. When all was said & done we werw advised it best from a liability stand point to just have a kind of good ol' boys group of lile minded individuals because it was becoming cost prohibitive. Talk to more than one attorney

 

[Cpt Caveman]

What he saidin the last post.
Dont use the term security team when talking to the insurance co. Safety team is much better received. An armed security detail would have tripled our insurance costs. Dont mention guns to them they get all squirmy.

 

[billybob44]

Dont mention guns to them they get all squirmy.

What he saidin the last post.
Dont use the term security team when talking to the insurance co. Safety team is much better received. An armed security detail would have tripled our insurance costs. Dont mention guns to them they get all squirmy.

Well, yes and NO...

If guns are not mentioned to the insurance Co. then you probably will hear after an incident " GUNS-GUNS, You did NOT say anything about GUNS---Nope, NO coverage here..."....Bill.

 

[churchmouse]

So what I am getting from this is even when approached from a well defined plan using trained and properly (standard issue side arms and amo) armed people it then becomes a slippery legal slope and insurance company's run and hide.
What the heck are folks supposed to do.....hire this out. Ridiculous.

 

[2A_Tom]

I am not a member of our security so I don't know the particulars.

• Our ushers are trained to intercept folks walking around during the service and help them find a seat.
• Our uniformed guards patrol the coridors, proprety and direct traffic. They are armed and some bring their duty vehicles and park around the property.
• Execuitive Protection are in plain clothes, armed and situated in key spots around the auditorium Two on front row and two in balcony that I know of.
• All are linked by police band radios.
• They run their own training and qualification, which I understand is very comprehensive.
• We also have a medical team which consists of qualified EMT's and several nurses.

Serious inquires can be made by calling and making an apointment. I am not sure which pastor over sees security, but I am sure that Eddie Lapina would be helpful in getting you in touch with the propper person. The number is 219 923 0711, FBC Hammond.

We have had this for over thirty years, because we had death threats against our pastors.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Good info...

 

[newtothis]

So what I am getting from this is even when approached from a well defined plan using trained and properly (standard issue side arms and amo) armed people it then becomes a slippery legal slope and insurance company's run and hide.
What the heck are folks supposed to do.....hire this out. Ridiculous.

Yes. Insured and bonded will always be cheaper than risking insurance companies cutting ties due to breach of contract due to willful omission. Anything that has potential for violence (use all the favorite key words you can think of) will be rated higher by insurance adjuster, actuaries, and everyone else with skin in the game.

 

[churchmouse]

Yes. Insured and bonded will always be cheaper than risking insurance companies cutting ties due to breach of contract due to willful omission. Anything that has potential for violence (use all the favorite key words you can think of) will be rated higher by insurance adjuster, actuaries, and everyone else with skin in the game.

So, having seen, experienced and knowing some of the security forces I guess just being SA in your group would be the best way to go.
Even those you may hire are not going to go out on a limb as one may do for the group. Being a member of said group.

 

[newtothis]

So, having seen, experienced and knowing some of the security forces I guess just being SA in your group would be the best way to go.
Even those you may hire are not going to go out on a limb as one may do for the group. Being a member of said group.

My .02 ... have "private citizens" engaged in "unplanned" action in event something happens... with extra "choir practice"... also have Guy or Kirk point you in direction of legal experts JUST IN CASE. Like having a fire extinguisher or extra batteries...

the willful...unsolicited... acts of private parties, may or may not be a better option if something bad were to happen... civil liability of individual vs civil liability of whole organization. The key thing is "totality of the circumstances".

 

[HoughMade]

Well, yes and NO...

If guns are not mentioned to the insurance Co. then you probably will hear after an incident " GUNS-GUNS, You did NOT say anything about GUNS---Nope, NO coverage here..."....Bill.

Only if the insurance company asked about them and they are lied to or they are otherwise excluded in the policy explicitly.

 

[thunderchicken]

As we were told by actually having a written plan, training requirements, and keeping records it would ahow that we knew people would be armed and that would be enough to open the door for insurance to distance themselves in the event that something would happen. Their stance could be that by having armed security it increases the potential of a situation being escalated and a gun being used. We were told the best plan from a legaland insurance stand point is to hire off duty officers who would be covered by their dept to perform security.

 

[churchmouse]

As we were told by actually having a written plan, training requirements, and keeping records it would ahow that we knew people would be armed and that would be enough to open the door for insurance to distance themselves in the event that something would happen. Their stance could be that by having armed security it increases the potential of a situation being escalated and a gun being used. We were told the best plan from a legaland insurance stand point is to hire off duty officers who would be covered by their dept to perform security.

Thus adding to the overhead of your church. And putting strangers in the building thus adding to the anxiety levels. JMHO of course. Mo knock on LEO.

 

[thunderchicken]

We initially put together a team of 5 of us. We used another churches security plans as a base that we edited and modified to fit what we felt best fit our needs, and came up with training standards etc. We spent several hours working through senarios and and writing policies. It will require significant resources to put together a security team/ equipment. We have a few like minded individuals and are doing what we can

 

[newtothis]

As we were told by actually having a written plan, training requirements, and keeping records it would ahow that we knew people would be armed and that would be enough to open the door for insurance to distance themselves in the event that something would happen. Their stance could be that by having armed security it increases the potential of a situation being escalated and a gun being used. We were told the best plan from a legaland insurance stand point is to hire off duty officers who would be covered by their dept to perform security.

Keep in mind that The hiring agency (the church), the dept, and deputy/P.O. Would all be required to maintain insurance through the duration of the contract. Having P.O. Would make insurance cheaper, but civil liability is not negated bc you chose to use off duty.

CM, sorry there's not many good options bud

 

[HoughMade]

Having off-duty officers would help the liability situation, but there is nothing that will prevent a lawsuit. The best you can do is to ensure that there is proper insurance in place (even if a security company or dept. had insurance) and to have a good defense that reasonable training and supervision were in place. I would suggest a policy that provides coverage over and above any other insurance that may apply. I would also consider an indemnity agreement with any organization contracted to provide security. Regardless, make sure the church maintains insurance that will cover the situation with adequate limits (low end, 1 million, preferably more).

 

[chipbennett]

I have no special security training or anything in any "official" capacity to add. That said, I think it would generally be prudent to have means of intercept in place, such as ushers, deacons, etc. at the front of the church, near the steps up to the stage. Such people can be inconspicuous (merely sitting in the first row or two), can observe any unusual behavior, and can intercept/redirect in a nonchalant, non-threatening manner. They merely present themselves as an usher, or someone to provide needed help, or to pray for/with someone. (They can also be armed, as needed; but I think in the vast majority of circumstances, unusual situations can be resolved without that degree of escalation.)

 

[HoosierLife]

I am not a member of our security so I don't know the particulars.

• Our ushers are trained to intercept folks walking around during the service and help them find a seat.
• Our uniformed guards patrol the coridors, proprety and direct traffic. They are armed and some bring their duty vehicles and park around the property.
• Execuitive Protection are in plain clothes, armed and situated in key spots around the auditorium Two on front row and two in balcony that I know of.
• All are linked by police band radios.
• They run their own training and qualification, which I understand is very comprehensive.
• We also have a medical team which consists of qualified EMT's and several nurses.

Serious inquires can be made by calling and making an apointment. I am not sure which pastor over sees security, but I am sure that Eddie Lapina would be helpful in getting you in touch with the propper person. The number is 219 923 0711, FBC Hammond.

We have had this for over thirty years, because we had death threats against our pastors.

I know Bro Eddie. I'll give him a call. He was my Preacher's youth pastor back in the day.

 

[2A_Tom]

Who is your pastor? I may know him.