CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[Benp]

From the Islam thread:

Non-confrontational question: if the point of the parable was that the king properly rebuked the servant who did nothing with what was given to him, how is that last part - the violent part - not also what Jesus wanted to convey?

In context, it seems that Jesus was issuing a very specific threat to a very specific audience.

Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand.
Matthew 13:10-17 NIV
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.



If the people understood Jesus and knew that He was God in the flesh then they never would have crucified Him, which had to happen to cover all of our sins.
But all of those who didn't understand will have another chance.

 

[hog slayer]

But, what do you think?

Again, keep in mind the context. I don't know where those commentaries derive, but I find those passages lacking in recognizing the context of WHEN and WHERE Jesus was speaking.

To put it another way, his audience was not limited to the people in front of him, but the people that would hear the parable from those people... all the way to Jerusalem.

I think my command of the English language may not be sufficient sometimes. But, I think that "threat" is a very proper word here. I think that people SHOULD realize that God has provided a way. He's also provided a life. And the ability to choose. He wants us, but won't force us. I liken it to raising my own children, often enough. I might tell one of them not to do something when I know fully well they likely will do that thing. So, I'll give them the warning shot that such and such discipline will take place in the event my instruction is not followed. So, when that happens, it's not a surprise.

So, I THINK that Jesus was reinforcing that there is an end. When the Master comes home, he'll want an account for my time. If I was a faithful servant, I'll be rewarded well. If not, the punishment is just because it's already been laid out.

 

[T.Lex]

Jesus spoke in parables so they would not understand.
Matthew 13:10-17 NIV
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.



If the people understood Jesus and knew that He was God in the flesh then they never would have crucified Him, which had to happen to cover all of our sins.
But all of those who didn't understand will have another chance.

That parable in Luke, though - I'm not sure I understand your conclusion. Can you convey what you think Jesus' point was?

I think my command of the English language may not be sufficient sometimes. But, I think that "threat" is a very proper word here. I think that people SHOULD realize that God has provided a way. He's also provided a life. And the ability to choose. He wants us, but won't force us. I liken it to raising my own children, often enough. I might tell one of them not to do something when I know fully well they likely will do that thing. So, I'll give them the warning shot that such and such discipline will take place in the event my instruction is not followed. So, when that happens, it's not a surprise.

So, I THINK that Jesus was reinforcing that there is an end. When the Master comes home, he'll want an account for my time. If I was a faithful servant, I'll be rewarded well. If not, the punishment is just because it's already been laid out.

I think this is a fair reading, but it leaves out the last sentence.

The parable started with the noble going away to be crowned king, then coming back. He left not-king, but came back king. This was a routine event in the history of Judaism, as they were politically governed by remote capitols for thousands of years (at different times).

Of course, the faithful servant increasing the noble's wealth rather than simply sitting on it is certainly part of the point.

But, that last sentence creates another dimension to it - ramifications for working against the noble-turned-king. When he left, certain of his community did not WANT him to be king. Those who worked against him, the king would execute. (Naturally, that was another common occurrence.)

With the last line being a direct segue to Jesus' arrival to Jerusalem, to the place where people were actively working against His kingdom, it is difficult to imagine that He was not implying a specific ramification for those people.

 

[JettaKnight]

From the Islam thread:




Non-confrontational question: if the point of the parable was that the king properly rebuked the servant who did nothing with what was given to him, how is that last part - the violent part - not also what Jesus wanted to convey?

In context, it seems that Jesus was issuing a very specific threat to a very specific audience.

You don't want Christ to be your king? Fine, have it your way... in hell. I'll try and dissuade you, but life is short...

Spiritual death and God's eternal wrath is reserved until after judgement - after physical, earthly death has past. We're all smart enough to know the difference in how the word "death" is used. We all know "the wages of sin is death", yet every person, even saints, will leave this earth through an event we also call death. (raptured excluded)

The same goes for being reborn, right?

Birth and death can have two meanings, and for the most part it's obvious which one is employed.


The fact remains, killing non-Christians is incongruous with the Great Commandment, which is far more prevalent in scripture than a few passages that can be twisted. The goal of the Great Commandment is to keep people out of hell, that can't be accomplished if you off'em before the Holy Spirit gets a chance to do his work. I'm sure we all know person friends who've been changed by the Holy Spirit, yet may have been candidates for off'ing before...

 

[BugI02]

With the last line being a direct segue to Jesus' arrival to Jerusalem, to the place where people were actively working against His kingdom, it is difficult to imagine that He was not implying a specific ramification for those people.

And what happened in A.D. 70?

 

[JettaKnight]

And what happened in A.D. 70?

What are you, amillennial?

 

[BugI02]

What are you, amillennial?

From the previous one, maybe

 

[T.Lex]

And what happened in A.D. 70?

Indeed.

The Lord works through and by people who claim to not know Him.

 

[foszoe]

When are all the enemies of the King conquered?? The Cross and Resurrection
The kingdom of God is already here.
This parable is already fulfilled. It is not requesting any further action on our part.

Psalm 68

1God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered;
and those who hate him shall flee before him!
2As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away;
as wax melts before fire,
so the wicked shall perish before God!
3But the righteous shall be glad;
they shall exult before God;
they shall be jubilant with joy!

 

[Benp]

That parable in Luke, though - I'm not sure I understand your conclusion. Can you convey what you think Jesus' point was?

Well the first scripture that I quoted mentioned that Christ wanted to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away, so in the parable the nobleman left and didn't tell them how long he would be gone. He gave them instructions on what to do while he was gone. Some knew that he was going to return, but would not submit to his rule. When he got back he found some that were doing exactly what he asked and they were rewarded. Some tried what he instructed, but they weren't very successful, and others knew what to do, but didn't do anything. Those that didn't try had their minas taken away to give to those who were able to use them and be profitable.
When Christ left He was not King, but when He returns He will be King. He wants to find us doing what He instructed us to do, which is following in His footsteps. We have plenty of chances every single day to choose the right thing to do. God doesn't want us to give up and become weary of doing good, and that is why it's helpful for us to encourage each other. God wants everyone to be in His family, but those that do not want to be a part of His family He will destroy because they would be miserable for eternity, so it's out of love that He will destroy them, not because He wants to, but because of their choice.

 

[T.Lex]

Well the first scripture that I quoted mentioned that Christ wanted to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away, so in the parable the nobleman left and didn't tell them how long he would be gone. He gave them instructions on what to do while he was gone. Some knew that he was going to return, but would not submit to his rule. When he got back he found some that were doing exactly what he asked and they were rewarded. Some tried what he instructed, but they weren't very successful, and others knew what to do, but didn't do anything. Those that didn't try had their minas taken away to give to those who were able to use them and be profitable.
When Christ left He was not King, but when He returns He will be King. He wants to find us doing what He instructed us to do, which is following in His footsteps. We have plenty of chances every single day to choose the right thing to do. God doesn't want us to give up and become weary of doing good, and that is why it's helpful for us to encourage each other. God wants everyone to be in His family, but those that do not want to be a part of His family He will destroy because they would be miserable for eternity, so it's out of love that He will destroy them, not because He wants to, but because of their choice.

Ah, so a forecast of Revelation. I think that's a fair reading.

While that may be it, I think there's a more temporally relevant meaning, too, that I alluded to. When Jesus was a lad, His family visited Jerusalem. They accidentally left Him there (as can happen with kids). When they found Him, He was instructing in the Temple. Then they left.

Regardless how many times He'd already been to Jerusalem (I believe there's some question on the exact number/timing) Jesus was - at that very moment in Luke - returning to Jerusalem as part of His ministry. "King of the Jews."

Those that undermined Him, and He knew who they were and what they were doing, received a warning in that parable. They probably didn't understand the full import of it, but we do. Or should.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Ok.

There is a resource called "Christ in the Psalms" by Fr Patrick Henry Reardon. Its on Kindle for 9.99 and I highly recommend it. I have it though and for your next psalm I was going to post from it.

He is a good writer and speaker. Was Episcopalian (Priest I think, Orthodox now after the Episcopalians swung from the via media to the road to who knows where )

He knows his Greek and History but what is interesting about him is his command of Hebrew and Latin since his seminary background is western. When listening to him speak, he quotes more Lating and Hebrew than he does Greek at times

I might order that.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Got one coming based on your recommendation.

Thanks!

Ok.

There is a resource called "Christ in the Psalms" by Fr Patrick Henry Reardon. Its on Kindle for 9.99 and I highly recommend it. I have it though and for your next psalm I was going to post from it.

He is a good writer and speaker. Was Episcopalian (Priest I think, Orthodox now after the Episcopalians swung from the via media to the road to who knows where )

He knows his Greek and History but what is interesting about him is his command of Hebrew and Latin since his seminary background is western. When listening to him speak, he quotes more Lating and Hebrew than he does Greek at times

 

[ATM]

When are all the enemies of the King conquered?? The Cross and Resurrection
The kingdom of God is already here.
This parable is already fulfilled. It is not requesting any further action on our part.

Psalm 68

1God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered;
and those who hate him shall flee before him!
2As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away;
as wax melts before fire,
so the wicked shall perish before God!
3But the righteous shall be glad;
they shall exult before God;
they shall be jubilant with joy!

The kingdom of God is already here, indeed.

Love God. (not a god, not stories about God, God.)

Love your neighbor. (do not hate even the most deceived and ruthless neighbor you can imagine, for you may appear the same to them)

 

[foszoe]

Uh oh.

Now I am on the hook

I was going to sample you a Psalm or two to help you decide

Oh well, my wife and I are wanting to go Spring Mill Park this year, I suppose if you don't find it useful I could reimburse you 50% of the cost.

Got one coming must mean you got the book. That's what I prefer and own but I have that one in an electronic form that came with my Logos software.

Got one coming based on your recommendation.

Thanks!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Uh oh.

Now I am on the hook

I was going to sample you a Psalm or two to help you decide

Oh well, my wife and I are wanting to go Spring Mill Park this year, I suppose if you don't find it useful I could reimburse you 50% of the cost.

Got one coming must mean you got the book. That's what I prefer and own but I have that one in an electronic form that came with my Logos software.

If you get a chance while at SM park, maybe we can meet up and get a burger or something.

Yeah, the electronic books are great for portability and quick reference but I like the physical ones better.

 

[ATM]

[video=youtube;upGCMl_b0n4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGCMl_b0n4[/video]

 

[Think]

From Islam thread,

Absolutely not! Jesus said He and the Father are one! The Holy Bible states that there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved, (Jesus). Jesus Christ said: I an THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO man comes to the Father, but by ME. Jesus said to not only love your friends, but to love your enemies. the koran states that infidels, (unbelievers) are to be slaughtered if they refuse to convert. So no, it is not the same God.

These can be interpreted as one in purpose and that he, as a prophet and a messenger, is the way to his Lord. (Click on the links above for detailed explanations. (That's how Unitarian Christians interpret them too))

 

[Think]

From Islam thread

The "god" of islam is borne out of the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not chosen of God.

The descendants of Ishmael, according to Genesis, are chosen by God to be a great nation:

"through Isaac shall your descendants be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman [Ishmael] also, because he is your offspring." (Genesis 21:13-14)

Abraham had left Hagar and their newborn, Ishmael in Paran...

"when the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. Then she went, and sat down over against him a good way off, about the distance of a bow shot; for she said, "Let me not look upon the death of the child." And as she sat over against him, the child lifted up his voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not;for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 21:15-18)

 

[foszoe]

Blessed Holy Pentecost!

We come to the end of the Paschal Season. We have said our Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen! for 40 days, we have said Christ is Ascended! From Earth to Heaven! Now we can say The Holy Spirit has descended! From Heaven to Earth! until the end of the Festal season for Pentecost.

It is always a bittersweet time of year. Between Pascha and Pentecost we read the books of Acts and John. At the end of Acts we know Paul is awaiting his Martyrdom and at the end of John we hear how the death of Peter will occur.

It is also a beautiful picture of how God will meet us where we are. 2 times the Lord asks Peter do you love (agape, selfless love) and Peter responds with I love (philo, brotherly love). The third time Jesus asks do you love (philo) me? and Peter responds again with I love (philo). It is an example of God will meet us no matter where we are as long as we are receptive. His condescension to mankind. No matter where you are you don't have to struggle to get to where you should be to meet Jesus, He is right there with you willing to lead the way.

It is also in recognition of this bittersweet reading, I believe, that the Church commemorates Peter and Paul on the 29th of June. This commemoration occurs in both the east and the west. In the east, it is proceeded by a fasting period of up to 3 weeks. The Icon of this feast is often prominently displayed at meetings between the Pope and the Patriarch in recognition that just as Peter and Paul had their differences, they were able to overcome them and be reconciled. There is evidence of this feast being celebrated as early as 258 AD.

Pentecost Readings

• Numbers 11:16-17, 24-29
• Joel 2:23-32
• Ezekiel 36:24-28
• John 20:19-23
• Acts 2:1-11
• John 7:37-52, 8:12