CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

RC Sproul: What is Reformed Theology?

My notes from the first lecture

Theology vs Religion


Theology queen of sciences: Anthropology should subsumed by Theology


Theology is subsumed by Anthropology: Religion is separated from is subservient to Social Sciences


Prototype vs Reflection


Theology is not a system of behavior but a belief system that is a life and worldview with God at it's center


Basis for Religious Sincerity regardless of which religion


Exodus: 32:17,18 Moses is returning from Mt Sinai and meets Joshua and the Golden Calf made by Aaron. The people were engaged in religion but not theology.


Placing something other than God at the center of worship.


Theology: Knowledge of the True God (vs experience???)


What counts is feeling good, psychological needs met, warmth of fellowship, sense of belonging and relevance.


Theology is Life because it is the knowledge of God

Agree with most disagree with none. question on one...Does experience inform knowledge? By this I am wondering if the knowledge is "head" head knowledge.

There is an Orthodox slogan. The Person of prayer is a theologian and the theologian is a person of prayer.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm no theologian and I'm not particularly well read but this Calvinism vs Arminianism thing seems like arguing over which side of a penny better describes the penny. It (the debate) also has a chicken and egg vibe to it.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm no theologian and I'm not particularly well read but this Calvinism vs Arminianism thing seems like arguing over which side of a penny better describes the penny.

At a certain level, that could also describe all of the Christian denominations. With just a bit more abstraction, perhaps even Christianity v. Judaism v. Islam. And another step....

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

At a certain level, that could also describe all of the Christian denominations. With just a bit more abstraction, perhaps even Christianity v. Judaism v. Islam. And another step....

Nah...there are significant differences in believing in sprinkling vs dunking, grape juice or wine, Baptist vs Catholic, etc. and believing Christ is the Messiah vs him merely being a prophet. Those are apples (Granny Smith v red delicious) and oranges comparisons. I'm no universalist.

 

[T.Lex]

Nah...there are significant differences in believing in sprinkling vs dunking, grape juice or wine, Baptist vs Catholic, etc. and believing Christ is the Messiah vs him merely being a prophet. Those are apples (Granny Smith v red delicious) and oranges comparisons. I'm no universalist.

I'm sorry if I came across as carrying that accusation. In reading what I wrote, I can see how that might be perceived. Truly, though, that wasn't my intent.

It was really just an observation.

I don't think of myself as a universalist. But, if we believe that God is capable of revealing Himself to us at an individual level, I can see how people could have their own individual perspectives on the penny.

I guess, I don't reject the notion of universalism, although I also don't adopt it as correct. (At least not as I understand it to be.)

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm sorry if I came across as carrying that accusation. In reading what I wrote, I can see how that might be perceived. Truly, though, that wasn't my intent.

It was really just an observation.

I don't think of myself as a universalist. But, if we believe that God is capable of revealing Himself to us at an individual level, I can see how people could have their own individual perspectives on the penny.

I guess, I don't reject the notion of universalism, although I also don't adopt it as correct. (At least not as I understand it to be.)

Generally, I think God can certainly do anything He wishes but I don't believe He can or will lie. If we believe the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus was therefore accurately quoted when He said He was the way, the door, etc., well...those that choose to reject Him and adopt or stay in another religion, they put themselves in eternal peril, I sincerely believe.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Funny but in reality not so far from the truth. I wonder what those guys that drew lots for Jesus' garments sold them for?

 

[foszoe]

In a narrow sense, when opposing Arminianism and Calvinism, perhaps it is. For me, its not a discussion of Arminianism vs Calvinism as your analogy implies though.

When I meet people who say they will never serve or believe in a God that is wrathful and vengeful and they have formed this impression because of Calvinism, then I develop more of an interest in learning about Calvinism. Maybe this statement will clarify my new found interest in the theology itself

So I really have two objectives. To know that when I disagree with Calvinism, I am disagreeing with what is actually being taught, at least in the mainstream, and be able to correct the understanding of others and to identify what elements of Calvinism, correctly understood, would contribute to a person making a statement such as the above and refute the statements and make followers of Christ out of the person.

My objective is not to win Calvinists to Christ for I am not privy to the state of their soul. But to those who adamantly oppose Christianity due to their understanding of Calvinism it becomes a matter of life or death.

My overall objective should never be understood as wanting to "convert" any professing Christian to Orthodoxy on this forum. I do hope to deepen the relationship of other Christians with Jesus through different perspectives than what most here have been exposed to in their Christian walk.

I'm no theologian and I'm not particularly well read but this Calvinism vs Arminianism thing seems like arguing over which side of a penny better describes the penny. It (the debate) also has a chicken and egg vibe to it.

 

[foszoe]

The Rest of the Story, commemorated on July 10th!

[FONT=&amp] THE TRANSLATION OF THE HONORABLE VESTURE [ROBE] OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]At the time of the suffering of our Lord Jesus for mankind, there was to be found among the ranks of the Roman army in Jerusalem a Georgian named Elioz from the town of Mtskheta. His mother had heard of Christ and, in her heart, believed in Him. Seeing her son off to the army in Palestine, she counseled him not to do anything against Christ. When the Lord was nailed to the Cross, the sound of the hammer on Golgotha reached the ears of Elioz's mother in the town of Mtskheta. Hearing this sound, she cried out: "Woe is me because I did not die before this time. Death would have rescued me from this dreadful sound!" Saying this, she fell dead. Elioz, at that time, was beneath the Cross and with the other soldiers cast lots for the tunic [robe] of Christ. He won the vesture and brought it to Mtskheta and gave it as a gift to his sister Sidonia. She, having heard about the death of the Lord and that her brother was a participant of the shedding of innocent blood, fell dead holding the tunic of the Lord firmly in her hands and no one was able to tear it away but were compelled to bury the tunic with her. A cedar tree sprouted from her grave from which poured forth a sweet-smelling healing myrrh. In time, the cedar tree fell and the place was forgotten. Following her prayer, St. Nina, found this place with the help of a pillar of fire. The baptized Emperor Mirian erected a church there dedicating it to the Holy Apostles. In the year 1625 A.D., the Shah Abbas took this tunic and sent it to Moscow as a gift to Prince Michael Feodorovitch and Patriarch Philaret. This tunic was placed in the Cathedral Church of the Dormition [Assumption] of the Blessed Virgin in Moscow.[/FONT]

Funny but in reality not so far from the truth. I wonder what those guys that drew lots for Jesus' garments sold them for?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

In a narrow sense, when opposing Arminianism and Calvinism, perhaps it is. For me, its not a discussion of Arminianism vs Calvinism as your analogy implies though.

When I meet people who say they will never serve or believe in a God that is wrathful and vengeful and they have formed this impression because of Calvinism, then I develop more of an interest in learning about Calvinism. Maybe this statement will clarify my new found interest in the theology itself

So I really have two objectives. To know that when I disagree with Calvinism, I am disagreeing with what is actually being taught, at least in the mainstream, and be able to correct the understanding of others and to identify what elements of Calvinism, correctly understood, would contribute to a person making a statement such as the above and refute the statements and make followers of Christ out of the person.

My objective is not to win Calvinists to Christ for I am not privy to the state of their soul. But to those who adamantly oppose Christianity due to their understanding of Calvinism it becomes a matter of life or death.

My overall objective should never be understood as wanting to "convert" any professing Christian to Orthodoxy on this forum. I do hope to deepen the relationship of other Christians with Jesus through different perspectives than what most here have been exposed to in their Christian walk.

I gotcha. Like in the other threads arguing about modes of carry someone coined the acronym JFC, I might suggest that could stand for Just Folow Christ. I have my opinions about certain errancies of various denominations and they have opinions about mine. I don't know who is technically correct and I'm somewhat concerned about the legalism these debates could result in or devolve into. The important thing, the only thing (in my opinion and belief) is to believe Jesus was God incarnate that came to earth to save it and that if we repent and believe, God's grace is given. Now, whether you believe in child baptism, believe you must eschew modern conveniences like the Amish do, musical instruments or none, I'm just not going to get hung up on.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The Rest of the Story, commemorated on July 10th!

[FONT=&] THE TRANSLATION OF THE HONORABLE VESTURE [ROBE] OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST[/FONT]
[FONT=&]At the time of the suffering of our Lord Jesus for mankind, there was to be found among the ranks of the Roman army in Jerusalem a Georgian named Elioz from the town of Mtskheta. His mother had heard of Christ and, in her heart, believed in Him. Seeing her son off to the army in Palestine, she counseled him not to do anything against Christ. When the Lord was nailed to the Cross, the sound of the hammer on Golgotha reached the ears of Elioz's mother in the town of Mtskheta. Hearing this sound, she cried out: "Woe is me because I did not die before this time. Death would have rescued me from this dreadful sound!" Saying this, she fell dead. Elioz, at that time, was beneath the Cross and with the other soldiers cast lots for the tunic [robe] of Christ. He won the vesture and brought it to Mtskheta and gave it as a gift to his sister Sidonia. She, having heard about the death of the Lord and that her brother was a participant of the shedding of innocent blood, fell dead holding the tunic of the Lord firmly in her hands and no one was able to tear it away but were compelled to bury the tunic with her. A cedar tree sprouted from her grave from which poured forth a sweet-smelling healing myrrh. In time, the cedar tree fell and the place was forgotten. Following her prayer, St. Nina, found this place with the help of a pillar of fire. The baptized Emperor Mirian erected a church there dedicating it to the Holy Apostles. In the year 1625 A.D., the Shah Abbas took this tunic and sent it to Moscow as a gift to Prince Michael Feodorovitch and Patriarch Philaret. This tunic was placed in the Cathedral Church of the Dormition [Assumption] of the Blessed Virgin in Moscow.[/FONT]

Interesting. I've never heard this before.

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm no theologian and I'm not particularly well read but this Calvinism vs Arminianism thing seems like arguing over which side of a penny better describes the penny. It (the debate) also has a chicken and egg vibe to it.

Indeed it does.

Questions that are influenced by your "side":

• Are you worried about losing your salvation?
• Are people essential good?
• What part of your salvation do you have a role in?
• Does that prayer you said at church camp after singing "It Only Takes a Spark" what makes you a Christian and gets you into Heaven?
• Why bother spreading the Gospel?
• Do babies go to Heaven?
• Free will or God's sovereignty?

 

[indiucky]

Funny but in reality not so far from the truth. I wonder what those guys that drew lots for Jesus' garments sold them for?

The robe had a lot of value in Jerusalem...There were no uncomfortable seams in robes made in Galilee due to the size of loom they used...The robes were famous in the region for their comfort.....Most robes had a thick seam across the shoulders which could be uncomfortable.....

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Indeed it does.

Questions that are influenced by your "side":

• Are you worried about losing your salvation?
• Are people essential good?
• What part of your salvation do you have a role in?
• Does that prayer you said at church camp after singing "It Only Takes a Spark" what makes you a Christian and gets you into Heaven?
• Why bother spreading the Gospel?
• Do babies go to Heaven?
• Free will or God's sovereignty?

If I repent and accept God's gift, does it matter if I were selected or if I decided on my own? That's where the chicken and egg thing comes in, in my thinking. That other stuff is interesting and worth discussing but once I am born again, that stuff seems secondary...to me anyway.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The robe had a lot of value in Jerusalem...There were no uncomfortable seams in robes made in Galilee due to the size of loom they used...The robes were famous in the region for their comfort.....Most robes had a thick seam across the shoulders which could be uncomfortable.....

I'd heard about that seem thing but never heard why.

Amazing how times have changed that a second hand robe would be worth so much. We give away perfectly good clothes just because they're out of style or we're tired of them or (as I'm not too proud to say) they just don't fir anymore.

 

[hog slayer]

If I repent and accept God's gift, does it matter if I were selected or if I decided on my own? That's where the chicken and egg thing comes in, in my thinking. That other stuff is interesting and worth discussing but once I am born again, that stuff seems secondary...to me anyway.

I'm a Calvinist. I'm also a young earth believer. Neither is required for salvation. The thing to remember is knowledge of God is worship and pleasing to God. https://bible.org/seriespage/2-enoch-man-who-pleased-god
So learning about Him by reading and studying the scriptures like the Bereans is pleasing and will surely bring about deep discussions that, while peripheral, are still important.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm a Calvinist. I'm also a young earth believer. Neither is required for salvation. The thing to remember is knowledge of God is worship and pleasing to God. https://bible.org/seriespage/2-enoch-man-who-pleased-god
So learning about Him by reading and studying the scriptures like the Bereans is pleasing and will surely bring about deep discussions that, while peripheral, are still important.

Several months ago in ours Sunday school class, we had a bit of a debate regarding young earth vs old earth belief. About half of us were on one side and half on the other. We all agreed, in the big scheme of things, God's not going to be waiting for you, when you get to heaven and demand to know if you were a young earther or old earther.

 

[JettaKnight]

If I repent and accept God's gift, does it matter if I were selected or if I decided on my own? That's where the chicken and egg thing comes in, in my thinking. That other stuff is interesting and worth discussing but once I am born again, that stuff seems secondary...to me anyway.

Admittedly, it's probably less than secondary importance.

[not directed as an argument to anyone...]
It's like any other science - for those fascinated, they just want to learn more about it. Why is it OK to try and understand black holes and not to try and understand the creator of those black holes?

Amazing how times have changed that a second hand robe would be worth so much. We give away perfectly good clothes just because they're out of style or we're tired of them or (as I'm not too proud to say) they just don't fir anymore.

Just let me know where you donate all the quality sport coats. I don't think I've ever bought one new.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Admittedly, it's probably less than secondary importance.

[not directed as an argument to anyone...]
It's like any other science - for those fascinated, they just want to learn more about it. Why is it OK to try and understand black holes and not to try and understand the creator of those black holes?




Just let me know where you donate all the quality sport coats. I don't think I've ever bought one new.

I don't think I've ever bought one...period. I had to buy a suit a few weeks ago for my kid's wedding. I may never wear that thing again.