CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[indiucky]

Well so much for the Scientology and Satanist threads taking some of the heat off the religious threads.....Dang it I tried lol....

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well so much for the Scientology and Satanist threads taking some of the heat off the religious threads.....Dang it I tried lol....

 

[JettaKnight]

Well so much for the Scientology and Satanist threads taking some of the heat off the religious threads.....Dang it I tried lol....

But we can use this heat to burn the witches!

 

[indiucky]

Yeah... we're slacking off. There's a few on my short list.

Dude I told you that IS Sara Jessica Parker and that IS the way she looks....For the umpteenth time she DID NOT turn herself into a horse...And quit wearing that hat...It looks silly on you...(But keep the boots...Those are AWESOME!!!)

 

[hog slayer]

I said "mostly"...while Judaism still clings to ritual genital mutilation, at least Christians haven't burned a "witch" alive in almost two years!

Food for thought: if their really were witches, or beings with magical powers used to torment humans with the power of the devil himself, would it be justifiable to blame people for burning them? What we know now limits our understanding of the time, maybe.

I think I could be convinced to burn a witch given the limitations of information circulating at that stage in history.

 

[T.Lex]

I think I could be convinced to burn a witch given the limitations of information circulating at that stage in history.

I have no doubt many on INGO would be so convinced.

 

[indiucky]

I think I could be convinced to burn a witch given the limitations of information circulating at that stage in history.

I think I would have been burned as a warlock given the limitations of me being able to stop my mouth from running off at that stage in history...

You know Churchmouse burned a few back in the day......He said it was harder work than you thought and he used to wear his arms out getting the confession from them...He quit about 1620 or so IIRC.....Ended up marrying one of them gals he was torturing...She liked it, he liked it and she gave him a good thirty years of her life after they hooked up....I hated eating dinner over there with them..She would always put an eye of newt in my soup just so CM could watch me freak out...Good times...I miss those days...

 

[BugI02]

Food for thought: if their really were witches, or beings with magical powers used to torment humans with the power of the devil himself, would it be justifiable to blame people for burning them? What we know now limits our understanding of the time, maybe.

I think I could be convinced to burn a witch given the limitations of information circulating at that stage in history.

I must conclude that these are all of human invention. The reason is that they all have some weakness - sunlight, silver, constraint by and within a pentagram etc. Humans do not invent monsters without including a work-around else the monsters would get us all

I doubt Lucifer would so constrain his true minions

“Hell hath no limits, nor is circumscribed
In one self place, for where we are is hell,
And where hell is must we ever be.”

 

[Think]

Many here are under the impression that the terrorists of late are not the hard core by the book Muslims. They are misguided. My stance remains that the Quran displays a violent Muhammad's and preaches a violent message to non believers. In my mind, no matter how you follow it, if you claim Islam and the Quran you cannot be trusted around non believers

So my question to you is:
For those who can be peaceful Muslims because of how they" interpret" the Quran: they have a religion that SOUNDS like it commands it followers to violence regarding non believers

On the other hand, ISIS, the new age term x radical Muslim ' believes they are commanded to violence on non believers.

Assuming they are both using the same book (most likely NOT in ancient Arabic) what's the difference between their religions?

1 that COMMANDS violence OR
2 that just SOUNDS that way

Well, I'll try to make it simple as much as I can.

What Is Islam?

Muslims call their religion Islam, and the Arabic word Islam implies the attainment of peace through submission to God. The word Muslim is an adjective derived from the noun Islam, and implies one who has peace within himself from his submission to Allah.

What is Quran ?

The Quran, the last revealed word of God, is the primary source of every Muslim’s faith and practice. It deals with all the subjects which concern human beings: wisdom, doctrine, worship, transactions, law, etc., but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time, it provides guidelines and detailed teachings for a just society, proper human conduct, and an equitable economic system.

How was Quran revealed ?

Quran was not revealed in the complete form in which it exists today. It was revealed from time to time, according to the circumstances, over a time span of 23 years. If this is divided into years of war and peace. The revelations during these peaceful years were the peaceful teachings of Islam as are conveyed in the verses regarding the realization of God, worship, morality, justice, etc.

Why was the Prophet Muhammad a warrior ?

Muhammad's religious career is often divided into two periods: the Meccan Period which lasted for thirteen years, from the start of his revelations to his emigration to Medina; and the Medinan period, which lasted the remaining ten years of his life.

The Meccan Period is characterized by the more elliptical and otherworldly portions of the Qur'an, and by the story of the rejected and persecuted prophet. Had the assassination plot against him in 621 succeeded, his religious career would have been similar in broad outline to that of Jesus.

However, Muhammad escaped the trap set for him and went to live in the oasis of Medina. There he evolved from the charismatic head of a small group to the political and spiritual director of a large community. For the first time he had to wrestle with the challenges of creating a new society. The Qur'an continued to be revealed to him, but the focus of the message broadened now from the purely spiritual to include the more temporal issues of community building, lawmaking, and social institutions. Muhammad also came under formal military attack for the first time in Medina. Consequently, the Qur'an and Muhammad's teaching also focused on delineating the concept of the just war. Formal permission to fight is first applied in the Medinan Period.

What about violent ayat ?

When the Prophet of Islam emigrated from Makkah to Madinah, the idolatrous tribes were aggressive towards him. But the Prophet always averted their attacks by the exercise of patience and the strategy of avoidance. However on certain occasions no other options existed, save that of retaliation. Therefore, he had do battle on certain occasions. It was these circumstances, which occasioned those revelations relating to war. These commands, being specific to certain circumstances, had no general application. They were not meant to be valid for all time to come. That is why; the permanent status of the Prophet has been termed a ‘mercy for all mankind.’ (21:107)

How do Muslims read the Quran ?

First the reader should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the ayat are connected to each other the reader should study at the least the preceding and following ayat for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture. The indices provided in many of the exegeses of the Qur'an as well as the books of concordance allow the reader to get this information relatively easily. Often there is information available about the occasion of revelation, the historical context, of a particular verse. This requires at least a cursory knowledge of prophet Muhammad's life. (Available free sources on this can be found here)

Examples of the commonly misquoted ayat:



What is Jihad?

The word Jihad comes from the root letters JHD, which means to struggle or to strive. It is understood by piety minded Muslims as a positive, noble and laudatory term. That is how most apply it in their personal, social, political and military lives. The history of the Muslims rulers, on the other hand, gives us examples of those who attempted to sanctify their wars of personal aggrandizement as wars for a noble cause by applying the label Jihad to them. A few even named their war departments as the departments of Jihad. This kind of behavior may be likened to a politician's attempt to wrap him in the flag. Such exploitation of the term should not be allowed to corrupt the original or the commonly understood meaning of the word, which is to strive for the highest possible goals, struggle against injustice and practice self denial and self control to achieve the moral purity to which all piety minded people aspire. Prophet Muhammad actually said that "A greater Jihad" is struggle against one's own inner self.

With many of the billion-plus Muslims living in poverty or oppression, Islam has become a rallying point for independence movements worldwide. Since jihad and martyrdom were placed within a religious context during the Medinan period, some of these independence movements have deployed the same concepts as sanctified tools for motivating combatants in the face of overwhelming odds. Thus, some seek a military solution to their political aspirations.

How many ayat contain the word "Jihad" in Quran ?
4 ayat.

Does Islam has a code of war?

Other revelations and rulings concerned the proper treatment of prisoners of war and non-combatants, the sanction against killing innocent civilians, and the respectful treatment of enemy corpses (in contrast to the custom of the time, which was mutilation.) The wanton destruction of property or agricultural resources was put off limits too.

Even words of consolation for prisoners of war are found in the Qur'an:

• "Prophet, tell the captives you have taken: 'If God finds some good in your hearts, He will reward you with something better than was taken away from you, and forgive your sins, for God is forgiving and kind." (Qur'an 8:70)

More about the Islamic concept of Just war can be found here:
RIGHTS OF ENEMIES AT WAR
Islam and War: Islam and War by Professor Joel Hayward - Islam and War: Qur'an and War: Just War
Is Islam a Violent Religion? | MuslimMatters.org

I hope that may give you an overall view of Islam and its "violent roots".

 

[ATM]

Have you ever considered that Islam simply might be a religion that hasn't grown up? For all the rhetoric cited in the Koran as proof of the "evil" of Muslims, one can find similar "proof" in the Christian Bibles. There's really not a quantum leap in the notions. The question you should be asking isn't if the religion is evil, but why do some of the followers continue to do evil things, and hasn't pushed out it's loons like Christianity generally has. That's where your discussion should begin.

That would be the wrong approach, but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[ATM]

In an effort to bring some specificity, can we at least try to paint with a finer brush?

Sunni appear to have overall figured out how to integrate and participate in western secular societies.

The Salafist portion of Sunni clearly have not.

The Shia mostly have.

If we cannot speak with some specificity, then there will continue to be the opportunity to speak past each other, with countervailing examples aplenty.

Nope, not gonna make people the problem here, not any group of people. Deception is the problem.

 

[ATM]

I think you're missing the point.... unless you hold that this specific scripture can't be misinterpreted and used to justify killing non-Christians.

Of course it can. Apart from God, we'd justify anything we felt like doing, even with Bible verses. That's why I maintain that deception is the problem.

 

[ATM]

...The Bible says kill non-Christians if you twist it!"

Exactly. The most clever deceptions are always twists of the truth. If they weren't, most wouldn't fall for them, they wouldn't appeal to most, they wouldn't begin to justify our own selfish desires.

That's like DECEPTION 101.

 

[ATM]

Yes, Jesus said it as a parable, but the parable relates to the judgement of God. It is clear there is an equivalency between the nobleman and God.

We are not called to emulate God the Father, that would be a ridiculous error for any Christian. We are called to emulate and become like Jesus, the Son.

CHRISTIANITY 101

 

[ATM]

IKR?

I can understand the issue with Judaism - there's no teaching of Christ that explain the law & it's reasoning and how he fulfills it to change the dynamic. What I've never come to grasp is how Jews can take the law, which should still be in force for them, and choose to ignore parts or all of it.

The same way Christians choose to ignore parts or all of what Jesus said and did. None of us are righteous.

 

[ATM]

People sucked more then. It is from natural causes. Some have progressed morally. Some haven't. Some try to prevent that progression. Some try to lead it.

Nonsense. You don't even believe that.

Ultimately, inside, they are fulfilling their basic nature. That's not a defense of their behavior, btw. Behavior which commits violence on innocent people cannot be defended.

They are fulfilling their deceived, fallen nature, not their informed, designed nature.

And, yes, that is a valid defense for committing violence on innocent people from man's perspective and according to man's laws.

But, not God's.

 

[ATM]

...Frankly, I'm happy Kut (anyone, for that matter) posted scripture. It's the only way to reduce any unneeded confusion...

Nonsense. Apart from God, the Bible would be just another deception. Jesus is the Way.

 

[ATM]

Well so much for the Scientology and Satanist threads taking some of the heat off the religious threads.....Dang it I tried lol....

I love heat. Jet fuel can't melt truth.

 

[ATM]

Well, I'll try to make it simple as much as I can...

Are you a Muslim? Will you reason with me regarding your beliefs in Islam?

Did you read the whole thread yet and consider the questions which were skipped? Will you get to those when you run out of things to cut and paste?

I hope so.

 

[foszoe]

I love heat. Jet fuel can't melt truth.

Not only are you on a roll, you are mixing threads! Lol