CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[gregr]

So you also hold that Jews do not worship the same God?

The devil, as they say, is in the details. Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, so yes, they do worship the same God.Other than "Messianic" Jews, most Jews do not however, recognize Jesus as Messiah. God has chosen the Jews as His people, and He will bring them back to him in the end times, and that time is here. The "god" of islam is borne out of the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not chosen of God. It`s there in the Bible if one chooses to have wisdom and understanding. The one, true, living God mandates love for Him, and love for our neighbors. The so called god of islam mandates death to infidels, and teaches conversion at the point of a sword, and complete dominion or death. It is feel good, demonic theology to claim that the same god is worshiped, the kind of claim that would have one religion in particular screaming for stonings and beheadings.

 

[gregr]

Nope, as opposite as good and evil.

 

[gregr]

You worship the One True God, right? So do they.

Either the One True God exists, or it doesn't. If The One True God does exist, then you are both necessarily worshipping the same God. The difference becomes who, if anyone, is worshipping "correctly", and what are the consequences of those different disciplines of worship. In our time, there are literally thousands of different ways to approach the question of the One True God, their differences heavily linked to their parent cultures.

Each differing discipline necessarily insists it is the correct form of worship, most to the strict exclusion of other disciplines. Something that is true will be true for anyone that experiences it. If they are all worshipping the same God, why does every religious discipline come to such different conclusions when considering their deity? My answer, of course, is that the One True God is a product of human imagination...BUT, if the One True God really does exist I find it implausible that it will have much regard for our religious inclinations when determining its relationship with us.

Negative. How can they both be "the one true living God", when their commandants are completely diametric? The clear answer is, they cannot be one and the same. Each group is worshiping their god in the manner consistent with the teachings of that faith, and the contrast should be striking to anyone.

 

[PaulF]

Negative. How can they both be "the one true living God", when their commandants are completely diametric? The clear answer is, they cannot be one and the same. Each group is worshiping their god in the manner consistent with the teachings of that faith, and the contrast should be striking to anyone.

I don't follow you here...what "both"?

There can be only one "One True God". You worship it. So do they. It doesn't matter what god you happen to believe in, what name you give it, or the rituals you choose to try to commune with it. If the "One True God" exists it doesn't matter what anyone thinks they are praying to...They are, in fact, praying to the One True God.

The difference isn't the One True God, it isn't possible for it to be. The differences to which you are referring are all culturally inspired or imposed.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The devil, as they say, is in the details. Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, so yes, they do worship the same God. Other than "Messianic" Jews, most Jews do not however, recognize Jesus as Messiah. God has chosen the Jews as His people, and He will bring them back to him in the end times, and that time is here. The "god" of islam is borne out of the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not chosen of God. It`s there in the Bible if one chooses to have wisdom and understanding. The one, true, living God mandates love for Him, and love for our neighbors. The so called god of islam mandates death to infidels, and teaches conversion at the point of a sword, and complete dominion or death. It is feel good, demonic theology to claim that the same god is worshiped, the kind of claim that would have one religion in particular screaming for stonings and beheadings.

So do Muslims. Your belief on who is worthy to say they worship God, is contingent on how they practice their worship. You believe that since Islam "mandates death to infidels, and teaches conversion at the point of a sword, and complete dominion or death," that they are disqualified from saying they worship the same God. I don't revere the Pope nor Mary as Catholics do. I believe in Baptism by immersion and professed belief (i.e. no baptism of kids). There are a variety of differences within worship of the same God. Just because you think that their practices are distasteful, does not exclude them from worship of the same God. The caveat there is, if you think your beliefs of your denomination are the only "true" way of worship of God, and reject all other denomination as worshipping your God due to differences in practice, then you are philosophically consistent. Meaning, if you were a Baptist, you refuse to acknowledge Methodists, Calvinist, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc as worship the same God.

 

[Leo]

In nature, all very similar trees are easily identified by their fruit.

Comparing the teachings of the 5 books of Moses to the complete Tanakh of the practitioners of Judaism one easily sees a continuation in uniformity. With the cannon of Christian Scripture, it does not take a brilliant theological student to recognize the fulfillment of predictions and the continuations of the same moral definitions. That is not the case with the teachings of the islamic book.

On a national level, our Bill of Rights does not clash with the Tanakh or the Bible. On the other hand even the basic list of Key principles of sharia law stand in direct conflict with The Constitution of the United States. The requirements of islam strictly forbids any allegiance to anything other than islam. It demands participation in the elimination of any other belief system. Since islam has a bigger cultural element than spritual, Our rule of law and Constitution defining it, the US Government is a belief system. In light of that no follower of islam can possibly be a Citizen of the United States. They either have to backslide into compromise of islam , or flat out lie to become US citizens. Those born on this soil are a legal problem that this country will need to address.

Christians can easily look at their responsibility to this nation as proper stewardship of GOD's provision.

Simply looking at the fruit shows two vary different belief systems, in no way compatible.

 

[gregr]

So do Muslims. Your belief on who is worthy to say they worship God, is contingent on how they practice their worship. You believe that since Islam "mandates death to infidels, and teaches conversion at the point of a sword, and complete dominion or death," that they are disqualified from saying they worship the same God. I don't revere the Pope nor Mary as Catholics do. I believe in Baptism by immersion and professed belief (i.e. no baptism of kids). There are a variety of differences within worship of the same God. Just because you think that their practices are distasteful, does not exclude them from worship of the same God. The caveat there is, if you think your beliefs of your denomination are the only "true" way of worship of God, and reject all other denomination as worshipping your God due to differences in practice, then you are philosophically consistent. Meaning, if you were a Baptist, you refuse to acknowledge Methodists, Calvinist, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc as worship the same God.

We disagree. Imagine that.

 

[Benp]

I was going to make some points, but they were all covered by others in various posts. Very nicely done!

 

[Lelliott8]

It's safe to say that Muslims aren't worshipping any god very much at all, but rather a man who received revelations from an "angel", and pagan idols. They are told that the Bible is the Word of God, yet paradoxically are commanded to disobey its core tenets. Odd.

 

[Think]

It's safe to say that Muslims aren't worshipping any god very much at all, but rather a man who received revelations from an "angel", and pagan idols. They are told that the Bible is the Word of God, yet paradoxically are commanded to disobey its core tenets. Odd.

For Muslims' view on the bible, you can read this:
Quran Translation & Commentary, Appendix II,
Quran Translation & Commentary , Appendix III

Muslims also observe the core message of God's teachings which are manifested in the ten commandments that are included in the Quran too:
https://www.islamicity.org/4686/the-ten-commandments-allahs-universal-message/

 

[Leo]

Been there, heard it all before. What does the fruit look like? If it is so good, why has there been nothing but death and destruction for centuries?

 

[BugI02]

I don't follow you here...what "both"?

There can be only one "One True God". You worship it. So do they. It doesn't matter what god you happen to believe in, what name you give it, or the rituals you choose to try to commune with it. If the "One True God" exists it doesn't matter what anyone thinks they are praying to...They are, in fact, praying to the One True God.

The difference isn't the One True God, it isn't possible for it to be. The differences to which you are referring are all culturally inspired or imposed.

Paul, I don't think this is the rhetorical tour de force you think it is. There is certainly room for innumerable untrue gods, of which allah is quite likely one

"Two men say they're Jesus, one of 'em must be wrong" - Dire Straits, Industrial Disease

 

[foszoe]

For Muslims' view on the bible, you can read this:
Quran Translation & Commentary, Appendix II,
Quran Translation & Commentary , Appendix III

Muslims also observe the core message of God's teachings which are manifested in the ten commandments that are included in the Quran too:
https://www.islamicity.org/4686/the-ten-commandments-allahs-universal-message/

In a nutshell, from the last sentence on the Tarwah, there are no authoritative writings in the "OT"? Are the 10 commandments as written considered inspired and uncorrupted or are they to be seen through the lens of the Quran and the hadiths? The second link seems to say the same about the "NT"?

In the Quran are there verses that no longer mean what they say due to a revelation later in Mohammed's life? Are there verses that contradict in the Quran? How does abrogation work in the Quran? How is the Quran itself arranged?

For the Muslim is the life of Mohammed the primary source of how to live an ethical life? Is the "how to live" for a Muslim based on both the Quran and the Hadiths?

 

[foszoe]

There is one PaulF.

There are several forum members.

If each one wrote a post on who PaulF is I am sure you would read at least one and think to yourself, "That is NOT me!"

I don't follow you here...what "both"?

There can be only one "One True God". You worship it. So do they. It doesn't matter what god you happen to believe in, what name you give it, or the rituals you choose to try to commune with it. If the "One True God" exists it doesn't matter what anyone thinks they are praying to...They are, in fact, praying to the One True God.

The difference isn't the One True God, it isn't possible for it to be. The differences to which you are referring are all culturally inspired or imposed.

 

[jamil]

Nope, as opposite as good and evil.

You have to rely on facts not in evidence to get there.

 

[jamil]

There is one PaulF.

There are several forum members.

If each one wrote a post on who PaulF is I am sure you would read at least one and think to yourself, "That is NOT me!"

But that's not an argument that there are two Pauls. It's an argument that two different people have two different perspectives on paul.

 

[foszoe]

But that's not an argument that there are two Pauls. It's an argument that two different people have two different perspectives on paul.

At the core, settling whether Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God isn't really worth the effort because I don't see what the fruit of the discussion is. However, i wasn't thinking of that statement as one from the perspective of the people but from the perspective of the Deity. I do hold the opinion that God often says "that is not Me" which can be viewed as worshiping a false God. I would therefore arrive at the conclusion that most if not all believers at some point are worshiping a false God. Jews and Muslims fail to recognize the Trinity so I would say they are worshipping a false God. I would say non-Orthodox are worshipping a false God. I would say members of the Orthodox Church are at times worshiping a false God. I would say at times I am worshiping a false God.

A simple example, anyone who ever prays "Oh God, if you only get me out of xxx, I will do yyy" is praying the prayer of a pagan and I've done it in the past and will probably be guilty of it again.

With that I will end probably my most controversial ever post!

 

[Think]

In a nutshell, from the last sentence on the Tarwah, there are no authoritative writings in the "OT"? Are the 10 commandments as written considered inspired and uncorrupted or are they to be seen through the lens of the Quran and the hadiths? The second link seems to say the same about the "NT"?

In the Quran are there verses that no longer mean what they say due to a revelation later in Mohammed's life? Are there verses that contradict in the Quran? How does abrogation work in the Quran? How is the Quran itself arranged?

For the Muslim is the life of Mohammed the primary source of how to live an ethical life? Is the "how to live" for a Muslim based on both the Quran and the Hadiths?

Too many points, but here we go

Muslims believe the wisdom contained in previous revelations were put in its final form in Quran. The ten commandments are included in Quran, which mean that they are divinely inspired. In some prophetic sayings Prophet Muhammad said:“If you do ask the people of the book – as is inevitable – then consider what agrees with Allah’s Book and accept it, and whatever contradicts Allah’s book reject it.” [al-Musannaf (6/112)]. So, it's predictable that Muslims won't agree on something like the crimes and Major sins attributed to God's prophets in OT.

The word “abrogation” in Islamic terminology means one rule has been replaced by another rule or a general rule has been made specific.

The classic example of abrogation in the Quran is the gradual prohibition of alcohol.First, Allah discouraged the believers from drinking alcohol by highlighting its negative effects. Although people earned some benefit from alcohol through trade and entertainment, it was made clear that the harm in it is greater than its benefit.
Allah said:

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They ask you about wine and gambling. Say: In them is great sin and some benefit for people, but their sin is greater than their benefit.
Surat al-Baqarah 2:219

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Then, Allah prohibited the believers from approaching prayer while in a state of drunkenness.Allah said:

​

O you who believe, do not approach prayer while you are intoxicated until you know what you are saying.
Surat al-Nisa 4:43

​

Finally, Allah prohibited alcohol completely once the people were ready for it.
Allah said:

​

O you who believe, wine, gambling, sacrificing on stone alters, and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid them that you may be successful.
Surat al-Ma’idah 5:90

​

Thus, the prohibition of alcohol came gradually over time. It is important to understand this progression so that we do not misinterpret the previous verses to think that alcohol is merely discouraged.
The wisdom behind the gradual prohibition was that Arab society in the beginning was not ready to abandon drinking alcohol. They needed to strengthen their faith in order to overcome their desire to drink.

Regarding arrangement of Quran, the Prophet always arranged for each passage of the Qur'an to be recorded in writing as soon as it was revealed. Further details can be found here: How were the Quran?s Verses and Chapters Arranged? | About Islam

And yes, Muslims believe that Prophet Muhammad was sent to raise moral standards and spread harmony and peace in society. Many "guidelines books" , such as ( this one) were published to teach Muslims to emulate the Prophet and reject bad actions and behaviors.

I hope that would help.

 

[jamil]

At the core, settling whether Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God isn't really worth the effort because I don't see what the fruit of the discussion is. However, i wasn't thinking of that statement as one from the perspective of the people but from the perspective of the Deity. I do hold the opinion that God often says "that is not Me" which can be viewed as worshiping a false God. I would therefore arrive at the conclusion that most if not all believers at some point are worshiping a false God. Jews and Muslims fail to recognize the Trinity so I would say they are worshipping a false God. I would say non-Orthodox are worshipping a false God. I would say members of the Orthodox Church are at times worshiping a false God. I would say at times I am worshiping a false God.

A simple example, anyone who ever prays "Oh God, if you only get me out of xxx, I will do yyy" is praying the prayer of a pagan and I've done it in the past and will probably be guilty of it again.

With that I will end probably my most controversial ever post!

I accept the logic from the perspective of God. But from man's perspective, which is the only perspective you or Jews, or muslims have, it is only your belief that any of this is so. What if, from God's perspective, you are the one who is wrong.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If you`re suggesting for a nanosecond that Christians worship the same God, you`re dead wrong.

It is Islamic scripture that Allah is the God of Abraham.

Regardless what you think, they believe you are all worshipping the same deity.

I just simply ask people if they think God exists and if they answer yes then I know they are not worshipping the same God of Orthodox Christianity that I do.

it's the same God.

Absolutely not! Jesus said He and the Father are one! The Holy Bible states that there is only one name under heaven by which we must be saved, (Jesus). Jesus Christ said: I an THE way, THE truth, and THE life, and NO man comes to the Father, but by ME. Jesus said to not only love your friends, but to love your enemies. the koran states that infidels, (unbelievers) are to be slaughtered if they refuse to convert. So no, it is not the same God.

It is supposed to be the same God, but it's not

You worship the One True God, right? So do they.

Either the One True God exists, or it doesn't. If The One True God does exist, then you are both necessarily worshipping the same God. The difference becomes who, if anyone, is worshipping "correctly", and what are the consequences of those different disciplines of worship. In our time, there are literally thousands of different ways to approach the question of the One True God, their differences heavily linked to their parent cultures.

Each differing discipline necessarily insists it is the correct form of worship, most to the strict exclusion of other disciplines. Something that is true will be true for anyone that experiences it. If they are all worshipping the same God, why does every religious discipline come to such different conclusions when considering their deity? My answer, of course, is that the One True God is a product of human imagination...BUT, if the One True God really does exist I find it implausible that it will have much regard for our religious inclinations when determining its relationship with us.

Nope, as opposite as good and evil.

The devil, as they say, is in the details. Jews believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, so yes, they do worship the same God.Other than "Messianic" Jews, most Jews do not however, recognize Jesus as Messiah. God has chosen the Jews as His people, and He will bring them back to him in the end times, and that time is here. The "god" of islam is borne out of the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not chosen of God. It`s there in the Bible if one chooses to have wisdom and understanding. The one, true, living God mandates love for Him, and love for our neighbors. The so called god of islam mandates death to infidels, and teaches conversion at the point of a sword, and complete dominion or death. It is feel good, demonic theology to claim that the same god is worshiped, the kind of claim that would have one religion in particular screaming for stonings and beheadings.

Negative. How can they both be "the one true living God", when their commandants are completely diametric? The clear answer is, they cannot be one and the same. Each group is worshiping their god in the manner consistent with the teachings of that faith, and the contrast should be striking to anyone.

I would say that you all have covered the argument pretty thoroughly. In the end, one group is presenting the argument that the God of Jews and Christians is incompatible in nature with Allah. Others are arguing that both are one in the same and by extension all paths must lead to the same destination. While I choose not to wade into the argument, I will point out that all concerned are well advised to be sure that they are right to the best of their ability for obvious reasons! As for the best solution we are going to have today, I believe I covered that earlier:

I would point out that, using the First Amendment, you can distill those enumerated rights such that they all necessarily rest on the freedom of thought, which ultimately defaults to the 'right to be wrong' (your mileage may vary regarding what is 'wrong').