Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[HoughMade]

I've been too busy reading the SBC report... Oof.

I've been at a Southern Baptist church since 1995. I've never had any use for the politics of the Convention. I am confident that our local church has dealt with the few issues that have arisen above-board, in the best interests of those who could have been exploited. I am a big believer in local church autonomy.

I have grown less and less enamored with the Convention and think it's a grand mistake for the denomination to start treating itself as hierarchical when it should not be. In sum, I don't know what other churches or the Convention have done, but our house is in order and has systems set up to protect people from exploitation and abuse to the extent at all possible. if the Convention itself is rotten, it's time to go.

 

[historian]

I've been at a Southern Baptist church since 1995. I've never had any use for the politics of the Convention. I am confident that our local church has dealt with the few issues that have arisen above-board, in the best interests of those who could have been exploited. I am a big believer in local church autonomy.

I have grown less and less enamored with the Convention and think it's a grand mistake for the denomination to start treating itself as hierarchical when it should not be. In sum, I don't know what other churches or the Convention have done, but our house is in order and has systems set up to protect people from exploitation and abuse to the extent at all possible. if the Convention itself is rotten, it's time to go.

You know who has local church autonomy and a structure that helps churches out?

THE LCMS!!! (Join us...)

 

[JettaKnight]

I've been at a Southern Baptist church since 1995. I've never had any use for the politics of the Convention. I am confident that our local church has dealt with the few issues that have arisen above-board, in the best interests of those who could have been exploited. I am a big believer in local church autonomy.

I have grown less and less enamored with the Convention and think it's a grand mistake for the denomination to start treating itself as hierarchical when it should not be. In sum, I don't know what other churches or the Convention have done, but our house is in order and has systems set up to protect people from exploitation and abuse to the extent at all possible. if the Convention itself is rotten, it's time to go.

As an outsider, it's kinda fun to watch.

One thing that hit me today: there's a contingent fighting the SBC over the new lawyers because they're not anti-abortion enough. But it's clear that the old lawyers weren't pro-life. Rather than support the victims, their desire was to protect the institution.

White washed tombs.

Being pro-life isn't about erecting laws, beating your political foes, or punishing someone, it's about showing mercy and compassion and providing succor to the broken.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yes. He's not the one the should be showing support for right now.

Yes. As I said to somebody that was talking about it on FB. They did nothing wrong in the first few minutes. You love the sinner hate the sin. You lay hands on the pastor, pray for him, and then if its necessary (actual rape, charges need filed, etc) hold his sick a** until the authorities get there. Then you clean up the mess and move on without him. Immediately shunning is not very Christ-like. Neither is forgiving and then moving on like nothing happened/water under the bridge/etc. At LEAST you have to get rid of him because its a major breach of trust.

 

[HoughMade]

One thing that hit me today: there's a contingent fighting the SBC over the new lawyers because they're not anti-abortion enough. But it's clear that the old lawyers weren't pro-life. Rather than support the victims, their desire was to protect the institution.

And the lawyers have apparently donated to LGBT causes, but so what?

On the lawyer thing....and I guess I have a unique perspective- Lawyers are there to represent the clients. Period. End of story. I want really good ones and if we don't agree philosophically on things, but will get the job done....so be it.

That people care about the political views of the lawyers is odd to me and, frankly, shows a lack of a sense of reality and a lack of sophistication.

 

[JettaKnight]

Forgiveness doesn't mean that they can or should be involved in formal ministry ever again. (Hey children of Ravi Z., this goes for you too)

There are some things that should disqualify you from church staff for life. You can still serve God working elsewhere like the rest of us.

 

[JettaKnight]

And the lawyers have apparently donated to LGBT causes, but so what?

Yeah, I think that's what the real issue is.

On the lawyer thing....and I guess I have a unique perspective- Lawyers are there to represent the clients. Period. End of story. I want really good ones and if we don't agree philosophically on things, but will get the job done....so be it.

That people care about the political views of the lawyers is odd to me and, frankly, shows a lack of a sense of reality and a lack of sophistication.

Yeah, agreed. A good lawyer is going to give you good legal advice, not necessarily good moral advice. It's up to you (Or in this case the SBC leaders) to follow it.

 

[historian]

A good lawyer is going to give you good legal advice, not necessarily good moral advice.

But we all know that lawyers are upstanding moral people!

 

[HoughMade]

But we all know that lawyers are upstanding moral people!

Exactly WHAT are you implying?

I mean, after all, I received my legal education at an institution associated with the LCMS.

 

[historian]

Exactly WHAT are you implying?

I mean, after all, I received my legal education at an institution associated with the LCMS.

It is only mildly associated with us, it isn't one of ours. It also hangs with the icky ELCAs....

 

[JettaKnight]

You know who has local church autonomy and a structure that helps churches out?

THE LCMS!!! (Join us...)

I just noticed you're now living in the Dakotas - I suppose I'd be Lutheran too if I was out there.

 

[breakingcontact]

SBC is interesting. Baptists don't claim to be a denomination or at least they claim the SBC isn't a denomination, yet here they are acting like a denomination, covering up for known creeps.

For all of the criticism of the Roman Catholic church Baptists do...they need to clean their own rooms first.

I've brought up issues/concerns around the safety of children in a Baptist church and had to leave the church as they were not addressed in any meaningful way, the victim of the abuser was blamed, and the person arrested for the abuse was protected by church leadership. It is a real problem.

Another issue, Christians of my stripe have, is too often thinking that once they pull their kids from government school, that they are "safe" in the church.

God willing more creeps will get punished and innocent people protected. That's the good that can come out of these revelations about the SBC.

 

[breakingcontact]

I would also recommend your next bible study is on Revelation. You need to understand it to understand when it happens to keep your bearings and not fall away. Some think its happening now based on either the foundation of Israel in 1947, The 6 day war where Jews took control of Israel, or possibly when Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital. Whatever... many think one of these 3 starts the end times clock ticking; we may have passed the first marker that toppled the first domino. (personally, I dont know)

And if its not happening now? No big deal. You are prepared if it ever DOES happen in your lifetime.

My church on the SW side of Indy is hosting a Revelation bible study here in a week or two that will last for several months of Sundays at 11:45AM after our regular worship service. You aren't expected to worship with us but you are most welcome to if you wish because you dont want to miss worship at your home church. And even if you aren't a Methodist, you are still welcome to worship with us.

This is a college level course that dives VERY deep. I've already done it as a men's group bible study and my eyes were opened, and I'm at peace with whatever happens whenever. And it helped cement my faith; a first in almost 50 years of going to church. Im not exaggerating that studying it is life changing as a Christian. And having studied this in 2019, when Covid hit, I was cool as a cucumber in my mortality.

PM me for details, we'd love to have you join us.

Edit: digging deeper it appears that the course we are using is aged (2011) and the pastor who did it has moved on, so the church that sold his work is no longer selling it. I'll see if I can arrange to get a copy to distribute if anyone is interested since its no longer for sale. (abandonware?)

I've been doing a deeper dive into the views on Revelation lately.

Roughly 4 main views:
Idealist
Preterist
Historicist
Futurist

Going deeper into Revelation based on those 4 perspectives helped me to both better understand it and also better understand what I believe.

 

[HoughMade]

So, part of the SBC's problem is that the Convention itself has no authority to force a local church to do anything (which I support). The most it can do is, and I am assuming this, exclude a church from the Convention. The Convention provides no money to (the overwhelming majority) churches. The Convention does not determine who is a pastor in any church. The church doesn't answer to the Convention as to employees, volunteers or the pastor.

However, people apparently have reported alleged abuse and exploitation to the Convention, specifically, the Executive Committee ("EC"). While the EC has no power to control a local church, the problem is that once it receives information, it can't just ignore it, much less, try to cover it up. Unfortunately, the EC did both- nothing and cover up, at least to some extent.

Theoretical legal advice (this is not real legal advice): The moment the Convention learned of allegations of abuse or exploitation, it should have done NOTHING to investigate or cover up. It should have reported the allegations to law enforcement local to the church at issue and, if a minor was involved, to the local version of the Department of Child Services.

When any person makes a complaint to the Convention, they should be informed that these reports are going to happen. They need to make these reports regardless of what the complainant says they want. Further, they need to make the reports even if there is a lack of indentifying information or is the complaints are not credible. Then, keep a permanent file both of the complaint and the reports made to law enforcement and the DCS. The Convention should have done nothing to determine whether the allegations are true or not.

...but the Convention is HIGHLY political meaning that if you are on the inside, they really don't want anything happening to you.

As an aside, I have been involved in investigating sexual abuse allegations both as a church "official" and as an attorney retained to investigate. In both cases, I personally made contact with law enforcement and in one case, the DCS* (where a minor was involved). In all cases (a handful), law enforcement and DCS determined the allegations not to be credible, but that, in no way, changes my belief that there should be reports made in EVERY case regardless of how credible it looks. Always be thinking: "what if there is something here and someone later asks why we didn't do anything." NEVER give the allegation of "did nothing" or cover-up a chance to be made.

*When hired by a client, with the client's consent.

 

[breakingcontact]

The biggest faith matter on my mind lately is...figuring out how to effectively re-engage the culture.

I've really retreated into my family and into my church. I think that sometimes it is appropriate but only temporarily.

I cringe at the left of course, but also for the folks in my small town who don't see what is in front of them, thinking that being "country" and that associated lifestyle is salvation itself. The GOP solutions to our moral problems are not solutions at all, yet...what am I doing for my community to evangelize, convert, and reform it? I firmly believe in the different spheres of government and we have to get them right, in the right order. Things don't change from the top down but from the bottom up. We can't retake the culture from the top as the GOP and SBC et al are trying to do.

My withdrawal has come as I've seen so many believers eager to evangelize the world, while neglecting themselves, their families, and their local churches. Now that I've largely got that sorted out, although never perfectly, I do want to figure out how to better reach my community.

I'm not just describing random gospel discussions but intentional living and building a counter cultural community.

 

[historian]

I just noticed you're now living in the Dakotas - I suppose I'd be Lutheran too if I was out there.

You are minutes from the LCMS mecca of Concordia Lutheran Seminary, yet here you are in the darkness.



No, I had to give up being a Calvinist, and that left me with IFB or nothing. Lutheranism provided a third way which I appreciate.

Good reading if you are interested:
Wittenberg Vs. Geneva

 

[historian]

SBC is interesting. Baptists don't claim to be a denomination or at least they claim the SBC isn't a denomination, yet here they are acting like a denomination, covering up for known creeps.

For all of the criticism of the Roman Catholic church Baptists do...they need to clean their own rooms first.

I've brought up issues/concerns around the safety of children in a Baptist church and had to leave the church as they were not addressed in any meaningful way, the victim of the abuser was blamed, and the person arrested for the abuse was protected by church leadership. It is a real problem.

Another issue, Christians of my stripe have, is too often thinking that once they pull their kids from government school, that they are "safe" in the church.

God willing more creeps will get punished and innocent people protected. That's the good that can come out of these revelations about the SBC.

As former SBC, the fact that they kept a list of accused is odd. However, the fact that most of those on the list are not active in the pastorate (something like 2 or 4 from what I've heard) is heartening. It means that the bad apples have been kicked out of ministry (in the SBC at least), and that is good.

The problem, in my mind, is that churches are very hesitant about removing the bad apples, or like to cover it up ex post facto. A church I used to attend did that after we had left. Hired someone who had been released from their prior church for an indiscretion (with an adult) and then moved them into the youth ministry, only to let them go when texts to said youth were revealed. Then they memory-holed it. Nothing illegal was ever alleged or committed (from my understanding), but the fact that they just went quiet instead of clearly stating why they were letting the staffer go (and even hiring them with the indiscretion in the first place) is very bad. That was an IFB church too.

There is rot in every institution that allows for any power. Sadly, we live in a fallen world.
O Lord, Have Mercy.
O Christ, Have Mercy.
O Lord, Have Mercy.

 

[JettaKnight]

You are minutes from the LCMS mecca of Concordia Lutheran Seminary, yet here you are in the darkness.



No, I had to give up being a Calvinist, and that left me with IFB or nothing. Lutheranism provided a third way which I appreciate.

Good reading if you are interested:
Wittenberg Vs. Geneva

Minutes? I used to be almost next door; ride my bike there a lot.



I'm really glad you found a denomination that works for you.

 

[JettaKnight]

The problem, in my mind, is that churches are very hesitant about removing the bad apples, or like to cover it up ex post facto. A church I used to attend did that after we had left. Hired someone who had been released from their prior church for an indiscretion (with an adult) and then moved them into the youth ministry, only to let them go when texts to said youth were revealed. Then they memory-holed it. Nothing illegal was ever alleged or committed (from my understanding), but the fact that they just went quiet instead of clearly stating why they were letting the staffer go (and even hiring them with the indiscretion in the first place) is very bad. That was an IFB church too.

A predator like that is ticking time bomb; it's only a matter of time till they're able to act if you just keep quietly moving them around.

Fwiw, I'm on page 116 of 288 in the report. I can only take small bites...

 

[historian]

A predator like that is ticking time bomb; it's only a matter of time till they're able to act if you just keep quietly moving them around.

Fwiw, I'm on page 116 of 288 in the report. I can only take small bites...

They dumped the list:.

Overall, not what I thought. I mean, it has Jack Schapp on it. If you told him he would be on an SBC list he would be mad enough to cross state lines!