Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[foszoe]

I was afraid I couldn't figure out how you did it (respond to each issue). Luckily experimenting worked and I was able to.

I figured out how to do so myself today. I may have done it in the past, but I figured it out again

I am in the middle of a pretty brutal work week, time wise, so my time to respond may be limited but I want to make sure my responses are well thought out because I believe in your sincerity. I said up to a week before, and that still holds it just depends on the actual workload.

 

[Ziggidy]

I used to believe in mid-tribulation rapture, now I believe in pre tribulation rapture. Will that belief change my Salvation status? No.
I do believe that whenever it is people need to be ready to go.

Bingo!

 

[2A_Tom]

Is the position on the rapture salvific?

Trusting Jesus Christ as Savior is total Salvation.

Everything else is icing on the cake.

 

[foszoe]

Trusting Jesus Christ as Savior is total Salvation.

Everything else is icing on the cake.

That is why if the discussion seems to be heading into strife vs understanding. I disengage.

It's like a 9mm vs 45 discussion

 

[bashMOH]

That is why if the discussion seems to be heading into strife vs understanding. I disengage.

It's like a 9mm vs 45 discussion

Exactly. 9mm is king and everything else is under its feet

 

[JonN]

I'm going to stray from the current discussion and add something that came across me in a conversation recently.

It seems in our extended group of friends, coworkers, and acquaintances there has been an increasing amount of death, pain, sickness and tragedy. This is all occurring over the last 3 months. Cancers returning, death from the resurgence of these cancers, tragic automobile and UTV accidents resulting in deaths...it just seems to be all around at the moment.

Upon discussing these things and adding them to the prayer list in our small group, someone asked why we thought God was taking so many good disciples from us. One individual stated without hesitation "I believe He is coming soon and gathering His team of angels". We don't know when, and we're not supposed to know. But it definitely gave me reason to pause and reflect on the comment.

 

[bashMOH]

Now some will say we can disagree and discuss amongst ourselves and both remain faithful Christians. I would say that is so up to a point and that point is when it divides the body of Christ. Once that happens it is no longer Christian discussion it is Christian division and a wound on the Body of Christ.

I completely understand and agree that we should not fracture the body, but where do matters of conscious fit in? If a pastor firmly believes in credobaptism, but their congregant believes in paedobaptism, what should they do? Should one or the other violate their conscience? I don't like my answer, but I think that's where denominations fit in.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm going to stray from the current discussion and add something that came across me in a conversation recently.

It seems in our extended group of friends, coworkers, and acquaintances there has been an increasing amount of death, pain, sickness and tragedy. This is all occurring over the last 3 months. Cancers returning, death from the resurgence of these cancers, tragic automobile and UTV accidents resulting in deaths...it just seems to be all around at the moment.

Upon discussing these things and adding them to the prayer list in our small group, someone asked why we thought God was taking so many good disciples from us. One individual stated without hesitation "I believe He is coming soon and gathering His team of angels". We don't know when, and we're not supposed to know. But it definitely gave me reason to pause and reflect on the comment.

We don’t know when but we’re one day closer than we ever have been.

 

[HoughMade]

 

[DragonGunner]

I use to believe in pre-trib but pre-trib doctrines exclude scriptures. I now see mid trib. As in 3.5 years into the tribulation. The first half are disastrous conditions that will test the saints and the 7 trumpets sound. And we are caught away into the clouds. Then the 7 wrath’s are poured out on the unsaved on earth. Yet they repent not. The anti christ sets himself up mid way through the tribulation and the 7th trumpet sounds. Thessalonians says that day shall not come until the son of perdition is revealed, let no man deceive you of this, for at the sound of the last trumpet we shall be caught away. These scriptures are always avoided by pre trib. But is nicer to think Christian’s shall be caught away before anything bad happens. I’m afraid when pre trib doesn’t happen many may actually lose faith and fall away…. And in the last days there shall be a great falling away. Sad.

 

[DadSmith]

I use to believe in pre-trib but pre-trib doctrines exclude scriptures. I now see mid trib. As in 3.5 years into the tribulation. The first half are disastrous conditions that will test the saints and the 7 trumpets sound. And we are caught away into the clouds. Then the 7 wrath’s are poured out on the unsaved on earth. Yet they repent not. The anti christ sets himself up mid way through the tribulation and the 7th trumpet sounds. Thessalonians says that day shall not come until the son of perdition is revealed, let no man deceive you of this, for at the sound of the last trumpet we shall be caught away. These scriptures are always avoided by pre trib. But is nicer to think Christian’s shall be caught away before anything bad happens. I’m afraid when pre trib doesn’t happen many may actually lose faith and fall away…. And in the last days there shall be a great falling away. Sad.

Like I stated above the main thing is to be ready to go whenever it comes. The Bible says some will be dead and others alive when it happens. We don't know what tomorrow may bring, we could be gone tomorrow be it in death or the rapture. So being ready is the key.

Now I need to try to get back to sleep. 0500 is getting closer.

 

[DadSmith]

@foszoe
The discussion above about nation or Gentile.
I've found more information while researching this.
The Hebrew Goyim (Gentiles) as representing all non-Jews is not found in the Torah. God promises Abraham to become a “Goy Gadol” (‘great nation’ Gen. 12).
So the translation using goy in Isaiah 66:8 and elsewhere does literally mean nation. Like many Hebrew words that have several meaning one must try to translate the most likely fits the context.
I think you will agree that God told Abraham great nation. Not great gentile.

 

[DragonGunner]

Like I stated above the main thing is to be ready to go whenever it comes. The Bible says some will be dead and others alive when it happens. We don't know what tomorrow may bring, we could be gone tomorrow be it in death or the rapture. So being ready is the key.

Now I need to try to get back to sleep. 0500 is getting closer.

It will only come tomorrow if the last trumpet sounds and the anti-Christ has been revealed. Thessalonians makes this all too clear. But I agree we are to be ready regardless.

 

[Ziggidy]

It will only come tomorrow if the last trumpet sounds and the anti-Christ has been revealed. Thessalonians makes this all too clear. But I agree we are to be ready regardless.

We’re gonna be very close if / when peace treaties start to happen in the Middle East and is orchestrated by one person who seemingly gets it all done…… enter the anti-christ, ruler of the new world order.

 

[DragonGunner]

We’re gonna be very close if / when peace treaties start to happen in the Middle East and is orchestrated by one person who seemingly gets it all done…… enter the anti-christ, ruler of the new world order.

We will be very close when the 6 trumpets sound. The last trumpet is the 7th. Lots of bad thing happening quickly. Those not trusting in God may fall away. “But I show you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST Trumpet, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1Cor. 15: 51-52. “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” 2 Thes. 2-3. Some might want to read what happens with the 7 trumpets. Not going to be good days on earth for many. Interesting that the 6th trumpet about an army of 200 million who kill 1/3 of men for 1 year…..no military in the world has that number or even close except one. China, they now have 200 million. Interesting.

 

[DadSmith]

It will only come tomorrow if the last trumpet sounds and the anti-Christ has been revealed. Thessalonians makes this all too clear. But I agree we are to be ready regardless.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 NKJV
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
[7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Here it says that he will not be revealed until after the he who restrains him is taken out of the way.

Who is this restraint?

 

[DragonGunner]

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 NKJV
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
[7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Here it says that he will not be revealed until after the he who restrains him is taken out of the way.

Who is this restraint?

Read all the chapter in KJV. Makes it more clear. God is letting iniquity to work, the spirit of anti-Christ is in the world right now, but then the anti christ himself shall come, revealed and then destroyed. 1 John 4:3 tells of that anti christ iniquity. You’re posing a question that is being answered. God allowing that inquity, until anti christ is takin out of the way, then verse 8 confirms that, and expounds on it. This is why I always prefer the KJV along with and Greek and Hebrew break down of the English language that is so weak.

 

[DadSmith]

Read all the chapter in KJV. Makes it more clear. God is letting iniquity to work, the spirit of anti-Christ is in the world right now, but then the anti christ himself shall come, revealed and then destroyed. 1 John 4:3 tells of that anti christ iniquity. You’re posing a question that is being answered. God allowing that inquity, until anti christ is takin out of the way, then verse 8 confirms that, and expounds on it. This is why I always prefer the KJV along with and Greek and Hebrew break down of the English language that is so weak.

Who is the restrainer?

The lawless one is the anti-Christ.
So who is restraining him now and must be taken to free thee anti-Christ to do as he wishes?

 

[DragonGunner]

Who is the restrainer?

The lawless one is the anti-Christ.
So who is restraining him now and must be taken to free thee anti-Christ to do as he wishes?

You’re reading from another Bible and with it its own interpretation and play in words. My Bible has no word restrained or lawlessness. I can’t help you in regard to what you want answered. I can only repeat myself. I have no struggle understanding what my Bible is saying. I suppose this happens when we use different bibles.

 

[DadSmith]

You’re reading from another Bible and with it its own interpretation and play in words. My Bible has no word restrained or lawlessness. I can’t help you in regard to what you want answered. I can only repeat myself. I have no struggle understanding what my Bible is saying. I suppose this happens when we use different bibles.

If you could read the Textus Receptus you'll find out the KJV does not translate well in many places, and this is one of them.
The KJV did not use the Textus Receptus to translate the new testament they used the Bishops Bible. The Bishops bible had been rewritten several times before they decided to use it for the KJV.

So do you believe that KJV is the only translation to be believed?

Youngs literal translation
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 YLT
and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time, [7] for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way, [8] and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 ESV
And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.


2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 NASB
And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. [8] Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;