Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[foszoe]

2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast -
Their obtaining eternal glory depended on their faithfulness to the grace of God; for this calling did not necessarily and irresistibly lead to faith; nor their faith to the sanctification of the spirit; nor their sanctification of the spirit to the glory of our Lord Jesus.
Had they not attended to the calling, they could not have believed; had they not believed, they could not have been sanctified; had they not been sanctified they could not have been glorified.
All these things depended on each other; they were stages of the great journey; and at any of these stages they might have halted, and never finished their Christian race.

Hold the traditions which ye have been taught - The word παραδοσις, which we render tradition, signifies any thing delivered in the way of teaching; and here most obviously means the doctrines delivered by the apostle to the Thessalonians; whether in his preaching, private conversation, or by these epistles; and particularly the first epistle, as the apostle here states.
Whatever these traditions were, as to their matter, they were a revelation from God; for they came by men who spake and acted under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit; and on this ground the passage here can never with any propriety be brought to support the unapostolical and anti-apostolical traditions of the Romish Church; those being matters which are, confessedly, not taken from either Testament, nor were spoken either by a prophet or an apostle.

So hold fast to the Doctrine Paul taught them.

You are quoting from Adam Clarke's Commentary. I was raised on it. He comes from the Wesleyan tradition and teaches the Wesleyan tradition. His interpretation fo 2 Thess:2:15 is informed by his religious tradition.

Wesley did not want to start a new church either. He wanted to reform Anglicanism. What did his followers do upon his death? Schism into their own church against the tradition of Christ.

 

[DadSmith]

You are quoting from Adam Clarke's Commentary. I was raised on it. He comes from the Wesleyan tradition and teaches the Wesleyan tradition. His interpretation fo 2 Thess:2:15 is informed by his religious tradition.

Wesley did not want to start a new church either. He wanted to reform Anglicanism. What did his followers do upon his death? Schism into their own church against the tradition of Christ.

Point is that scripture was about the Doctrine Paul gave to them.
I know you dislike using Paul's doctrine/teachings yet they are inspiring by God just like all other scripture.

 

[foszoe]

Point is that scripture was about the Doctrine Paul gave to them.
I know you dislike using Paul's doctrine/teachings yet they are inspiring by God just like all other scripture.

According to Adam Clarke. You are following his tradition. I hope in the future, you will cite quotes so I know whose tradition you are espousing.

I don't dislike Paul. He is a Saint of the Church. I just won't use St Paul to challenge the clear meaning of Christ.

 

[DadSmith]

According to Adam Clarke. You are following his tradition. I hope in the future, you will cite quotes so I know whose tradition you are espousing.

I don't dislike Paul. He is a Saint of the Church. I just won't use St Paul to challenge the clear meaning of Christ.

I gave you the clear meaning of Christ when he called out tradition, and rituals but you ignored it.

Since your church doesn't seem to accept Paul's teaching you are therefore not following biblical doctrine, but man's tradition and rituals.

Paul's doctrine is ordained by God and it is Christ's doctrine as well.

 

[GTM]

I gave you the clear meaning of Christ when he called out tradition, and rituals but you ignored it.

Since your church doesn't seem to accept Paul's teaching you are therefore not following biblical doctrine, but man's tradition and rituals.

Paul's doctrine is ordained by God and it is Christ's doctrine as well.

foszoe can defend this better, but an Orthodox will say that the Tradition was taught by Christ to the Apostles themselves and faithfully taught from that point on. So it's not a man-made tradition, but the faithful transmission of Christ's teachings to the Apostles, which is why Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says "brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

 

[GTM]

Ancient Faith Radio is a great resource.

I recommend the following podcasts.
For Scriptures:

Search the Scriptures | Ancient Faith Ministries

Interesting and accessible Bible study for busy people - Presvytera and Dr. Jeannie Constantinou guides us through Holy Scripture with the eyes of the Church Fathers.

www.ancientfaith.com

Search the Scriptures Live | Ancient Faith Ministries

Interesting and Accessible Bible Study for Busy People - In this live program, Presvytera and Dr. Jeannie Constantinou guides us through Holy Scripture with the eyes of the Church Fathers and answers listener questions.

www.ancientfaith.com

Transforming Our Lives in Christ | Ancient Faith Ministries

Meditations, Sermons, Classes, and Lectures from St. Spyridon Greek Orthodox Church in Loveland, Colorado -

www.ancientfaith.com

For Protestant Inquirers.

Orthodoxy Live | Ancient Faith Ministries

Answering Pointed Questions About Orthodox Faith, Tradition, and Practice - Orthodoxy Live with Fr. Evan Armatas offers listeners an opportunity to ask pointed questions about the Orthodox Church. Perfect for seekers, converts, and cradle Orthodox Christians alike, this program is your chance to...

www.ancientfaith.com

For understanding Orthodox Worship and Approach to Scriptures and the Christian Life

Speaking the Truth in Love | Ancient Faith Ministries

Compelling Commentary on Christian Belief and Behavior - Teaching and reflections by Fr. Thomas Hopko

www.ancientfaith.com

Worship in Spirit and Truth | Ancient Faith Ministries

A series of reflections by Fr. Thomas Hopko on the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church.

www.ancientfaith.com

At the Intersection of East and West | Ancient Faith Ministries

Many people today are at a crossroads of faith. Longing for roots, some have encountered Orthodox Christianity. This podcast is taken from a class formerly taught by Dn. Michael Hyatt, former Chairman of Thomas Nelson Publishers and now a leading business consultant.

www.ancientfaith.com

For Protestant Inquirers, a bit polemical but:

Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy | Ancient Faith Ministries

Orthodox Christianity and Non-Orthodox Doctrine - Discover how Orthodox Christianity and non-Orthodox groups differ and why it matters to your spiritual journey.

www.ancientfaith.com

Finally, from this page you can see them all, I personally recommend anything from Hopko, Constantinou, Honeycutt, and Fr Evan Armatas. They are the best for Orthodox and Inquirers alike.

Others like Powell, comes from a protestant background, and he does some great stuff but he laughs too much for me

Hyatt is a good one, he is in the list up there. He actually was the CEO of Thomas Nelson Bible publishers for a long time and is on e reason we finally have an Orthodox Bible translated from the Septuagint with Orthodox notes.

I'm finding "The Whole Council of God" by Fr. Stephen De Young to be very good too.

 

[45sRfun]

Catholic
CATHOLIC, adjective

1. Universal or general; as the catholic church. Originally this epithet was given to the Christian church in general, but is now appropriated to the Romish church, and in strictness there is no catholic church, or universal Christian communion. The epithet is sometimes set in opposition to heretic, sectary or schismatic.

CATHOLIC, noun A papist.

It would be best to no longer use the archaic term "catholic" for universal.

Definition of CATHOLIC

roman catholic; of, relating to, or forming the church universal; of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[foszoe]

I'm finding "The Whole Council of God" b

y Fr. Stephen De Young to be very good too.

There us an Antiochian parish outside Bloomington. I think Fr Gilchrist is there. His father, Peter Gilchrist brought a lot of churches into Orthodoxy. I want to say 200 but it may be more. 2000 sounds like too many

Sure they would welcome you when you are ready. I am Carpatho Rusyn myself because that was the closest to me when I was an inquirer.



I also have a standing offer out there to accompany anyone on their first visit.
And a meal afterwards if desired. Pm if interested

 

[DadSmith]

foszoe can defend this better, but an Orthodox will say that the Tradition was taught by Christ to the Apostles themselves and faithfully taught from that point on. So it's not a man-made tradition, but the faithful transmission of Christ's teachings to the Apostles, which is why Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says "brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

Again tradition here is doctrine.

 

[DadSmith]

It would be best to no longer use the archaic term "catholic" for universal.

View attachment 310625

Definition of CATHOLIC

roman catholic; of, relating to, or forming the church universal; of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Catholic

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Catholic

webstersdictionary1828.com

I'll stick with the 1828 version.

 

[DadSmith]

foszoe can defend this better, but an Orthodox will say that the Tradition was taught by Christ to the Apostles themselves and faithfully taught from that point on. So it's not a man-made tradition, but the faithful transmission of Christ's teachings to the Apostles, which is why Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says "brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."

It is man made when its changed and form an opinion that is contrary to the scriptures. Who is to say the Orthodox are holding true to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles? Them?
Fighting for tradition, and rituals sounds a lot like the Sanhedrin. It was all tradition, rituals, and commandments
Christ called them out.

 

[GTM]

It is man made when its changed and form an opinion that is contrary to the scriptures. Who is to say the Orthodox are holding true to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles? Them?
Fighting for tradition, and rituals sounds a lot like the Sanhedrin. It was all tradition, rituals, and commandments
Christ called them out.

A couple of things: by accepting the canon of Scripture you are accepting the authority of the early church (e.g. Orthodox) who determined which books should be included. Second, various Church Fathers throughout the centuries testify to the faithful transmission of the teachings. Aberrant teachers were excluded. For example, Polycarp was a disciple of John, and corrected errant teachings, lived to be 86 and provided faithful leadership for 60 years.

I wish I knew, and had known, more church history. I think it would be extremely beneficial for all believers. It provides so much context to so many of these issues and misunderstandings.

 

[DadSmith]

A couple of things: by accepting the canon of Scripture you are accepting the authority of the early church (e.g. Orthodox) who determined which books should be included. Second, various Church Fathers throughout the centuries testify to the faithful transmission of the teachings. Aberrant teachers were excluded. For example, Polycarp was a disciple of John, and corrected errant teachings, lived to be 86 and provided faithful leadership for 60 years.

I wish I knew, and had known, more church history. I think it would be extremely beneficial for all believers. It provides so much context to so many of these issues and misunderstandings.

Have Orthodox Church's fallen away by allowing LGBT, climate change religion, and other apostasy to creep in?
This is a good check on if they are still holding to "tradition" doctrine.

 

[foszoe]

Again tradition here is doctrine.

You seem to like looking up original Greek.

Look up the word translated tradition. Look at all the other places it's used.

Ask yourself why it's translated differently in some places and what those places have in common?

Also tradition is not doctrine they are two different words in English and Greek.

If you are claiming them to be the same you need to support that biblically and from the original languages.

 

[foszoe]

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Catholic

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Catholic

webstersdictionary1828.com

I'll stick with the 1828 version.

I'll stick with the AD 33 version!

 

[foszoe]

It is man made when its changed and form an opinion that is contrary to the scriptures. Who is to say the Orthodox are holding true to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles? Them?
Fighting for tradition, and rituals sounds a lot like the Sanhedrin. It was all tradition, rituals, and commandments
Christ called them out.

Yet observance of tradition occurs by Christ and his apostles. Acts and the gospels make this very clear. Praying at the appointed hour. What is the appointed hour for prayer?

An Orthodox Christian can read Acts and Revelation and say I see this taught by my Church. I see this every Sunday in worship.

Most Protestants I am familiar with can not make the same claim.

Why do you go to Church on Sunday instead of Saturday?

 

[foszoe]

It is man made when its changed and form an opinion that is contrary to the scriptures. Who is to say the Orthodox are holding true to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles? Them?
Fighting for tradition, and rituals sounds a lot like the Sanhedrin. It was all tradition, rituals, and commandments
Christ called them out.

Scripture says so. You are right to say contrary to Scripture is man made. I will make the extraordinary claim that no Orthodox teaching or Apostolic tradition is contrary to Scripture

 

[DadSmith]

I'll stick with the AD 33 version!

Why? 1828 has defined it correctly.

Oxford English Dictionary

The OED is the definitive record of the English language, featuring 600,000 words, 3 million quotations, and over 1,000 years of English.

www.oed.com

catholic, adj. & n.
Designating that part of the Christian Church which acknowledges the Pope as its head; of, relating to, or associated with this church; = Roman…

Have Orthodox Church's fallen away by allowing LGBT, climate change religion, and other apostasy to creep in?

This is a good check on if they are still holding to "tradition" doctrine.

 

[foszoe]

Have Orthodox Church's fallen away by allowing LGBT, climate change religion, and other apostasy to creep in?

No.

Wesley's followers were called Methodist. Have any of Wesley's followers fallen away by allowing LGBT, climate change, and other apostasy?

 

[45sRfun]

A couple of things: by accepting the canon of Scripture you are accepting the authority of the early church (e.g. Orthodox) who determined which books should be included. Second, various Church Fathers throughout the centuries testify to the faithful transmission of the teachings. Aberrant teachers were excluded. For example, Polycarp was a disciple of John, and corrected errant teachings, lived to be 86 and provided faithful leadership for 60 years.

I wish I knew, and had known, more church history. I think it would be extremely beneficial for all believers. It provides so much context to so many of these issues and misunderstandings.

There is a lot of evidence that the entire cannon was complete before the last apostle died and before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. In that case the Catholic church had nothing to do with it other than to claim such cannonization to support their non-biblical practice of apostolic succession, which is never mentioned in the Bible.