Counter Supination - a New Grip for Women with AR-15s

[mk2ja]

I saw this in an email from Cheaper than Dirt this morning, but the video was posted by the NRA itself.

The speaker in the video proposes a new method for women to grip a rifle, in particular the AR-15, that is claimed to reduce the bicep's role and incorporate the shoulder and back muscles more. The idea is that this grip may be easier for women as it distributes the load over more, stronger upper body muscles.

Watch the video for a clear explanation of how the grip looks and works.

Does anybody think this is a good idea? What are the downsides of using a grip like this? Is it better to continue using the standard grip?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxfdNLitFyQ

 

[Jackson]

If its really superior, why wouldn't it apply to men as well?

 

[88GT]

If its really superior, why wouldn't it apply to men as well?

The grip is not inherently superior. It's the relative ability of carrier to support the rifle better with the off-hand with one grip vs. the other.

Relative is the key word. I just tried it with an AK.

My observations: the grip is effective with the AR-15 platform because the shooter's support hand can be place relatively close to the body. With the elbow tucked in and the arm close to the body, the hand's more natural position is the one illustrated in the video. With the arm extend, elbow away from the body, the hand's more natural position is palm-up. It's like catching a ground ball vs a pop fly. Your hand will be positioned differently relative to the arm position. We all know how goofy it looks (and feels) to try and catch a pop fly with a palm-up glove. Same concept. It would not work as effectively on AKs because you couldn't hold it close to the body because it would impede bolt movement and cartridge ejection (not to mention rips the fingertips to shreds). Other semi-autos might be a tad bit more forgiving in this area.

I actually think the counter-supination grip gets me to muscle fatigue faster. A good portion of that may simply be the fact that I've been shooting rifles for 15 years now and my muscles are learned and sufficiently strong to deal with it. And on anything but a rifle where the grip can't be placed within a few inches of the nose, I don't think it provides any advantage. I also think there's less ease of movement in transitioning between ready and low-ready. Again, that may just be muscle memory and comfort level based on experience, but I can't see myself ever using the grip in anything but experimental circumstances.

I would also think that it would fail to provide a stable fulcrum for balancing the long barreled rifles, a la the milsurp bolts like the K98, 91/30, M96, etc. Rifles that carry a significant portion of their weight in front of the receiver are going to be poor candidates for that grip IMO.

All that said, on the AR platform, I see the potential benefits.

 

[shooter521]

Henk Iverson has been a proponent of this technique for awhile now (and not just for women!). I have seen Tinman and others use it to great effect.

In my mind, it is kind of the "anti-Costa" grip.

 

[88GT]

Henk Iverson has been a proponent of this technique for awhile now (and not just for women!). I have seen Tinman and others use it to great effect.

In my mind, it is kind of the "anti-Costa" grip.

For those that use it, is it on the AR-15 platform or other rifles? I definitely see how it might be better for some on the AR, but I'm wondering if anybody has found it a better grip for any other long gun.

 

[geronimojoe85]

Off topic, but is it just me or do some people just look trashy with tattoos?
I mean maybe I'm being superficial but goofy grip aside the one thing I took from that video was how trashy and unprofessional her ink was.

 

[Jackson]

The grip is not inherently superior. It's the relative ability of carrier to support the rifle better with the off-hand with one grip vs. the other.

My comment wasn't really about the viability of the grip, but more to say that the grip is a gender-neutral topic, I think. If the grip provides more skeletal support, or incorporates larger muscles (as indicated in the video) for women, then it should have the same benefits for men.

Henk Iverson has been a proponent of this technique for awhile now (and not just for women!). I have seen Tinman and others use it to great effect.

In my mind, it is kind of the "anti-Costa" grip.

An Iverson class is where I first saw this type of grip advocated.

For those that use it, is it on the AR-15 platform or other rifles? I definitely see how it might be better for some on the AR, but I'm wondering if anybody has found it a better grip for any other long gun.

The instructor we're talking about used it on every long gun he picked up, including an AK. I do not personally use this technique, but I don't think the hand has to be as close to the receiver as you're describing to see the benefits. This would probably vary with the length of the arm relative to the length of the gun and whatnot. I doubt it works the same for everyone on every rifle. I think there was a short discussion in the T&T forum about this grip after that class. I'll see if I can locate it.

 

[88GT]

My comment wasn't really about the viability of the grip, but more to say that the grip is a gender-neutral topic, I think. If the grip provides more skeletal support, or incorporates larger muscles (as indicated in the video) for women, then it should have the same benefits for men.

Then say what you mean. You implied a superiority of the grip. It is gender neutral, but most men are sufficiently strong enough in the upper body such that any improvement probably has less advantage for them than for the women. And the disadvantages might negate these advantages.

The instructor we're talking about used it on every long gun he picked up, including an AK. I do not personally use this technique, but I don't think the hand has to be as close to the receiver as you're describing to see the benefits. This would probably vary with the length of the arm relative to the length of the gun and whatnot. I doubt it works the same for everyone on every rifle. I think there was a short discussion in the T&T forum about this grip after that class. I'll see if I can locate it.

I used it on an AK and I don't know how someone operates it without getting his digits caught up in the bolt action. My thumb rested exactly where the spent cartridge would be ejected. I have short digits. A long-fingered individual will be even more at risk. And I explained clearly in my post why the proximity to the body was relevant. I'm sure some will be able to handle the grip better than others, all else being equal. And some rifles lend themselves to a better fit with that grip than others. But simple logistics don't change: the farther the hand is positioned away from the body, the more torque stress is put on it in that grip. It will be individual/rifle combo dependent, but the limitation still exists.

 

[AnnieO]

The opposite of supination is pronation, so why the term counter-supination?
I have not tried it on a rifle, but it seems to me that it would really use the brachioradialis, thereby using a smaller muscle instead of larger ones.

 

[warthog]

FWIW, I use this grip for extreme distance standing up without a rest. I am plenty strong enough to hold the rifle up but it is steadier for me.

 

[mk2ja]

The opposite of supination is pronation, so why the term counter-supination?
I have not tried it on a rifle, but it seems to me that it would really use the brachioradialis, thereby using a smaller muscle instead of larger ones.

No clue why they called it that.

FWIW, I use this grip for extreme distance standing up without a rest. I am plenty strong enough to hold the rifle up but it is steadier for me.

How extreme are we talking about here?

 

[darthfader]

this grip is great for cqb.. when entering doorways you are not leading with your wrist. it is easier to fight from this position than from the thumb over bore grip. in the high ready position you can easily index off your chin for fast close shots. you do need to grab around the delta ring area. the magazine become a 5th point of contact on the ar15 platform. for me i find this grip superior.

 

[warthog]

Sorry, missed the question. Extreme can be out to 1000yds in a High Power match. I haven't shot one of those in a while though but in some of the stages you have to go from prone to sitting to standing and I use this grip standing. As for what I do now, out 100+ yards I use this grip because it is more steady for me and allows me to stay on target easier but I wouldn't try to go out to 1000 anymore standing without a rest until I get myself back into practice. I would shoot like this out to 200 yards though, maybe three.

 

[BMDRAKE71]

Its cross-pollination from high power rifle matches. Its not new. I've seen people shooting ARs like this in the Off-Hand positions for nearly 20 years.

 

[Leo]

Its cross-pollination from high power rifle matches. Its not new. I've seen people shooting ARs like this in the Off-Hand positions for nearly 20 years.

Also a very common offhand grip in smallbore competition. Natural point of aim is huge for effective offhand. Working with your position so that you and the rifle settle in together and requires the minimum of muscle involvement with shrink offhand groups every time.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Nothing new under the sun. It's been done forever.

The Chinese say, the true master studies 10,000 techniques and practices 3 to perfect.

Try it, if you like it, OK.

 

[sloughfoot]

Its cross-pollination from high power rifle matches. Its not new. I've seen people shooting ARs like this in the Off-Hand positions for nearly 20 years.

It allows the back of the elbow to rest against the rib cage. Good stable position for male, female, and kids. Its a lot better than trying to hold a rifle up. I can stand all day using this grip.

 

[esrice]

Only person I've witnessed shoot this way was a "go scary places and do scary things" INGOer at NFA Day several years back.

[video=youtube;l6tg_uVSqKA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tg_uVSqKA[/video]

ETA: Just saw shooter521 reference him upthread.