CPS authority in home visits?

[88GT]

I'm a member of an email list. One of the members is being harassed by an ex and he's brought in CPS, making bogus claims about her fitness as a mother, her child's education (she home schools).

Several of us have repeatedly told her not to allow CPS into the home at all absent a warrant. Some are claiming CPS does not need a warrant, that if they are denied access, they will simply call LE and be admitted anyway.

I wanna know from the lawyers and LEO whether or not the 4h amendment applies to CPS. Can they enter your home without a warrant simply to conduct an investigation?

 

[Hammerhead]

IANAL, but CPS has no legal authority to enter a home absent a court order. Even with a LEO present, without that paper, there's nothing they can do.

A complaint is not RAS or PC to enter a home. They have to have evidence that she's done something wrong or that the child is in danger. They have to present that evidence to a judge.

If they show up at her house, she should do exactly like she would with any other complaint (i.e. noise) that might draw LEOs and step outside, closing the door behind her to speak to the CPS worker.

 

[dross]

I don't know this to be fact, but my understanding is that they can interview your child at school without your knowledge or permission, and the school must allow it. This is based on what I remember from a friend who was a CPS agent in Texas many years ago. I don't know IN law, and I don't even know for sure if my memory serves correctly, but that's the way I remember it.

Tread carefully when dealing with CPS. They have enormous power to harm your child's life.

 

[j706]

I don't know this to be fact, but my understanding is that they can interview your child at school without your knowledge or permission, and the school must allow it. This is based on what I remember from a friend who was a CPS agent in Texas many years ago. I don't know IN law, and I don't even know for sure if my memory serves correctly, but that's the way I remember it.

Tread carefully when dealing with CPS. They have enormous power to harm your child's life.

X2.. I am not sure of what all they are capable of but they do seem to have a the courts on their side. I would recommend cooperating 100% because they can and will make life living hell for you. I have been with CPS an many,many home visits. Even so I am not sure of what types of authority they have.

 

[Joe Williams]

X2.. I am not sure of what all they are capable of but they do seem to have a the courts on their side. I would recommend cooperating 100% because they can and will make life living hell for you. I have been with CPS an many,many home visits. Even so I am not sure of what types of authority they have.

X3.

They can interview your child at school. They can take your child at school.

They cannot enter your home without a warrant, excepting emergency situations. This is irrelevant. A warrant is theirs for the asking, and then they'll be torqued.

They essentially operate outside the Constitution, since Constitutional protections are meaningless for organizations that operate without effective oversight. Judges, and everybody else who is supposed to oversee them, do not wish to be the one who denied a warrant then be on the hot seat if a child gets hurt. As such, CPS operates with de facto legal impunity, and many of the workers are willing to abuse the situation if you offend them, tread carefully. It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to be made whole if you are damaged by false accusations because those making complaints are heavily protected.

On the plus side, they are used to bogus complaints from disgruntled soon to be ex's, hate having their time wasted because they really do have more real work than they should, and I have known them to crucify people who keep making false complaints.

If you'd seen some of the horrors they have to deal with, you'd understand where they are coming from. Most people simply cannot imagine. I've seen 8 year old girls sold out as whores so Mommy can buy drugs... one had an anus so damaged that she would suffer prolapse walking down the hallway (google it... it's gross and sad.) Kids where you literally couldn't find a square inch anywhere on their body without scars. Kids not fed. Kids who would be beaten just for fun. Broken bones. Traumatic amputations. Horrifying just doesn't describe it. Normal, sane, people simply cannot believe people would do things like I've seen to kids... just literally cannot believe it. I just wish they had more effective oversight to match the power they wield.

 

[nawainwright]

I don't know this to be fact, but my understanding is that they can interview your child at school without your knowledge or permission, and the school must allow it. This is based on what I remember from a friend who was a CPS agent in Texas many years ago. I don't know IN law, and I don't even know for sure if my memory serves correctly, but that's the way I remember it.

Tread carefully when dealing with CPS. They have enormous power to harm your child's life.

If you read the OP, the woman home-schools her kid....good luck to the CPS interview the kid "at school"

 

[machete]

X3.

They can interview your child at school. They can take your child at school.

They cannot enter your home without a warrant, excepting emergency situations. This is irrelevant. A warrant is theirs for the asking, and then they'll be torqued.

They essentially operate outside the Constitution, since Constitutional protections are meaningless for organizations that operate without effective oversight. Judges, and everybody else who is supposed to oversee them, do not wish to be the one who denied a warrant then be on the hot seat if a child gets hurt. As such, CPS operates with de facto legal impunity, and many of the workers are willing to abuse the situation if you offend them, tread carefully. It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to be made whole if you are damaged by false accusations because those making complaints are heavily protected.

On the plus side, they are used to bogus complaints from disgruntled soon to be ex's, hate having their time wasted because they really do have more real work than they should, and I have known them to crucify people who keep making false complaints.

If you'd seen some of the horrors they have to deal with, you'd understand where they are coming from. Most people simply cannot imagine. I've seen 8 year old girls sold out as whores so Mommy can buy drugs... one had an anus so damaged that she would suffer prolapse walking down the hallway (google it... it's gross and sad.) Kids where you literally couldn't find a square inch anywhere on their body without scars. Kids not fed. Kids who would be beaten just for fun. Broken bones. Traumatic amputations. Horrifying just doesn't describe it. Normal, sane, people simply cannot believe people would do things like I've seen to kids... just literally cannot believe it. I just wish they had more effective oversight to match the power they wield.

Man,,,you are on fire...too bad I cant give you more rep today

I know someone who was trying to keep an adolescent from going straight into the gutter...this involved chores,,,homework and learning things outside of schooll... well,,,the kid didnt like this so she went to the public school administration and said she was being sexually abused... BOOM!!!! Out come all the cops and CPS people...and take the kid away NOw,,,thats a heck of a thing to say about someone just to get out of having to do homework every night but its what these kids learn at school from each other...and it works...at least for a few minutes...

Anyway....he thought that if she preferred the government to kin she made her bed,,,so he moved out of the state and the government got the kid... WHOOPS!!! she wasnt planning on that...the kids think that the government will get them off the hook at home,,,but he wasnt playing,,,especially when this kid accused kim of child molestattion... Long story short,,,the government got the kid and her grades went straight into the tank and she got lots of piercings that would never have been allowed back at the house... These meddling government busybodies do more harm than good...

Oh yeah...they wired up the kid and took her to a shrink and found she was completely lying and that she changed her story at least once a day...but by then it was too late...he was long gone... They wanted him to go to counseling and all this liberal bullcrap to get the kid back,,,even though he was right and the government was wrong,,,just so they could show that they made him do something... he wasnt going to play their game...

well his thought was...you government people know how to raise a kid??? You want to think you are better than a parent at raising a kid??? Fine--here you go... He wasnt going to be told what to do by the meddling government or by some lying kid... Maybe when shes 40 shell figure out that homework wasnt so bad after all...

I think if parents told kids that if you go running to CPS that thats where youll be until you turn 18,,,we aint taking you back,,,kids would take a different tone around the house...

Aint nothing wrong with homework,,,chores,,,helping your mother around the house,,,keeping your room clean,,,thanking mom and dad once in a while,,,making an effort at a sport,,,cleaning the sidewalk with a toothbrush if you do something really wrong to someone else,,,learning something outside of school... Nothing wrong with this at all... It worked for generations... If kids dont like this,,,well,,,theres a CPS foster home with bunk beds for you if this house is so horrible...

 

[n3v3rtrstamor0n]

 

[88GT]

X3.

They essentially operate outside the Constitution, since Constitutional protections are meaningless for organizations that operate without effective oversight. Judges, and everybody else who is supposed to oversee them, do not wish to be the one who denied a warrant then be on the hot seat if a child gets hurt. As such, CPS operates with de facto legal impunity, and many of the workers are willing to abuse the situation if you offend them, tread carefully. It doesn't help that it's nearly impossible to be made whole if you are damaged by false accusations because those making complaints are heavily protected.

Actually, there are several higher court rulings that say quite the opposite. Even the 9th Circus has ruled in favor of parental rights and Constitutional rights. (I couldn't sleep last night and did some research after I posted the question.)

On the plus side, they are used to bogus complaints from disgruntled soon to be ex's, hate having their time wasted because they really do have more real work than they should, and I have known them to crucify people who keep making false complaints.

I hope this turns out to be the case for this gal. Unfortunately, this kind of situation crops up rather regularly every couple of months on this email list. And with few exceptions, all of the complaints were malicious (or ignorant) yet CPS still acted as if the complaints were legitimate and valid, in one case taking the children from the mother without cause or due process. For the most part none involved allegations of abuse or physical danger, just claims of educational neglect.

 

[00BlasterResto]

My freind took a picture of his kid sitting on clotches in a front loading dryer. The door was open and the kid climbed in, he snapped a pic of her because it was cute then got her out and went on. Not the best place for a kid to get to, but no harm done.
Well he decided to post the pic on his facebook stuff and before you know it he is up to his eye balls in CPS, they ran him through the mill because someone reported hiom putting his kids in the dryer...
I mean the kid was sitting in a dryer and they drug test everyone in the house? Including the mothers parents. He was at my house one day, haveing a victory beer after we did a roof repair and got done early for the day. His girlfreind calls saying that CPS is there makeing all kinds of threats about taking the kids and stuff. They wanted him to go there immediatly! he looks at me sais "CPS is at my house" looking puzzled and holds up his victory brew.
I said well your at work, tell them they are not the only ones with jobs. I mean he is not the best parent but not the worste I ever knew either, it eventually fizzled out.
It was the only dealings I have seen with them, but I thought they would be quicker to notice a safe, healthy little girl when they see one and not chase people around and threatening their family.

 

[yotewacker]

I'd let them in. If you don't and a court order follows, you will remove any chance of a warning and the next step will be started.

 

[JetGirl]

I don't know this to be fact, but my understanding is that they can interview your child at school without your knowledge or permission

They can interview your child at school. They can take your child at school.

True.

If you read the OP, the woman home-schools her kid....good luck to the CPS interview the kid "at school"

Doesn't matter. There are some state tests that have to be administered at an accredited facility (public school or private with accreditation).
That's all it'd take...

 

[E5RANGER375]

dont let them in because of intimidation. who cares if they can just get a warrant on a whim. let them. your property is YOURS. I wouldnt let them see any guns when they come. who knows, they would probly show up with a warrant and the swat team next and shoot you and your dog, all over nothing. it happens

 

[Bondhead88]

X2.. I am not sure of what all they are capable of but they do seem to have a the courts on their side. I would recommend cooperating 100% because they can and will make life living hell for you. I have been with CPS an many,many home visits. Even so I am not sure of what types of authority they have.

This is horrible advise, you never speak to police without a lawyer and you never allow CPS into your home without a lawyer or unless they show up with a warrent.

If CPS wants to talk to you tell them you will arrange a time when you have legal counsel with you and then meet at his/her office if at all possible.

Too many people who think they have done nothing wrong have ended up in prison or tied up in court because of they're comments made to police and or government agencies.

Also do not seek legal advise from LEO's. I have much admiration for the Police but they are not laywers, they do not have an intricate understanding of the law regardless of their profession. This does not mean they are ignorant of the law, they are not, but they are limited in their training and I have seen many time where LEO's misquote and misapply the law. (not disrespect intended but any professional will know the boundaries and limits of their knowledge).

Again tell her to get a lawyer, do not speak to anyone without a lawyer, even if they have a warrant they are not obligated to make any comment there.

And anyone using the comment. "if you have nothing to hide you would let us in."

OK give me the address of your home the name of your children so I can go to your home, go through your personal belongings and have discussions with your children about your marriage, your home life, and any other personal thing I want to discuss.

 

[E5RANGER375]

This is horrible advise, you never speak to police without a lawyer and you never allow CPS into your home without a lawyer or unless they show up with a warrent.

If CPS wants to talk to you tell them you will arrange a time when you have legal counsel with you and then meet at his/her office if at all possible.

Too many people who think they have done nothing wrong have ended up in prison or tied up in court because of they're comments made to police and or government agencies.

Also do not seek legal advise from LEO's. I have much admiration for the Police but they are not laywers, they do not have an intricate understanding of the law regardless of their profession. This does not mean they are ignorant of the law, they are not, but they are limited in their training and I have seen many time where LEO's misquote and misapply the law. (not disrespect intended but any professional will know the boundaries and limits of their knowledge).

Again tell her to get a lawyer, do not speak to anyone without a lawyer, even if they have a warrant they are not obligated to make any comment there.

And anyone using the comment. "if you have nothing to hide you would let us in."

OK give me the address of your home the name of your children so I can go to your home, go through your personal belongings and have discussions with your children about your marriage, your home life, and any other personal thing I want to discuss.

would you expect any other kind of advice from him? he is a cop for one. just read some of his post if you wanna know what he thinks of us lowly citizens.

I couldnt agree more with your post. all out of rep though, sorry

 

[Keith_Indy]

Again tell her to get a lawyer, do not speak to anyone without a lawyer, even if they have a warrant they are not obligated to make any comment there.

This +100000

Most CPS people are well meaning, but they are there for the well being of the children not yours. It's their job to be advesarial with parents, because parents who are abusing or neglecting their children will do everything they can to hide the facts.

My wife and I just completed 26 hours of training with the state, and the horror stories are out there. So, be kind to them, but protect yourself.

 

[cosermann]

... (she home schools) ...

If your friend home educates, HSLDA membership can come in handy. If/when CPS shows up, she can call HSLDA, pass the phone outside, and let CPS talk to an HSLDA attorney.

Homeschool: HSLDA-Home School Legal Defense Association

 

[Indy317]

CPS would mostly likely need a court order, and as some have said here, that may be just something that is rubber stamped...I don't know for sure. What I would do is as follows:

#1: Keep the property clean. This means all chemicals on high shelves in closets, cabinets tied shut if we are talking really young kids. Knives should be pushed way back towards the kitchen wall, etc..

#2: If you decide to answer the door (if they don't have a court order, even if they do, I don't know if they would call LEO for assistance to break the door down), film and voice record the entire conversation. Go with them and film as they have a look around the home.

#3: If questioned about home schooling, start dropping comments that makes it appear that you are concerned about well known recent events at public K-12 schools: Anderson Schools covering up the rape, Carmel basketball players, the kid in Greensburg who committed suicide via teasing, and most recently, the southport HS girl who is in a coma after a fight. They won't be able to counter any of those arguments. Saying things like you don't agree with their "agenda" etc. will make one look like a kook to the eyes of some, but bringing to light physical violence, that makes the parent look concerned. I also would drop comments about looking into private school options.

#4: I have heard that if they call sans any sort of court order, offer to meet them at McDonalds or somewhere. Don't invite them to the home, or in the home. Don't bring the kids to the meeting. Whatever you do, don't offer to bring you and your kids to their building.

The scary thing with CPS is that they do have a lot of non-court ruling power, and we have humans in these positions, so there is always the chance of over-stepping, even if well meaning.

I may or may not agree with the opinions on the following website, but they have said things of interest when it comes to CPS. They also, in my opinion, have did some questionable things (like someone who was said to be related to the org., at least in the past, bailing out the I-465 mom) that makes me scratch my head. There are kids out there that need to be saved, we have "adults" that have zero logic skills, and for whatever reason, they live like animals/slobs. Kids shouldn't have to live in a trash dump, or with parents who only give them one diaper change per day.

HonkforKids

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

88,

Rather than rely on all the Intenet sea lawyers (most of whom are wrong BTW) have your friend contact a family lawyer. I've seen CPS do some things to "save the children" that were irreversible.

It's too important to screw around with.

 

[singlesix]

If your friend home educates, HSLDA membership can come in handy. If/when CPS shows up, she can call HSLDA, pass the phone outside, and let CPS talk to an HSLDA attorney.

Homeschool: HSLDA-Home School Legal Defense Association

Second this. I when I Home Schooled my kids we were members of HSLDA. If I remember they don't get involved in active cases if you weren't a member. Forgot how they defined active case.