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  • AtTheMurph

    SHOOTER
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 18, 2013
    3,147
    113
    How could anyone possibly make 2-4%? The S&P since like 1927 to today has paid 11%+ average. If a guy just buys the SPY and lets it ride, never selling peaks and buying dips......inflation adjusted is 8% with no dividends reinvested.

    2-4% must be buying bonds and CD's huh?

    The S&P 500 has done roughly 10% average total return since inception. 3% of that number is due to the CPI which is a very poor measure of actual inflation and probably understates real inflation by half. Here is an example.

    The single largest component of the CPI is housing. But it doesn't measure the cost of homes but rather "owner's equivalent rent" what a home owner would charge to rent their home. There are several problems with this method, first being someone who is not in the rental market probably has little knowledge of what rents are.

    Second problem is that interest rates themselves create a feedback loop in the reporting of inflation with such a measure. Someone who has a low interest mortgage would more likely think they would charge a lower rent since their debt service payments would be lower, when in fact the value of homes would be higher for the same reason.

    But let's stick with the 7% number from above. Now let's deduct an additional 25% for taxes (1.75%). You're at 5.25%.

    Let's now figure in volatility. What you say? The S&P has averaged 10%, we all know that. But what you probably do not know is how volatility affects actual returns.

    Take this example.

    You start with $100and invest in the S&P500. In year one you make 20%! In year two you make 10%! In year 3 you lose -20% :(, in year 4 make 10% and year 5 make 10%. I think you will agree that the average return over that 5yr period is 6% (20+10-20+10+10)/5 = 6

    At the end of that 5 year period you would have $127.78 before taxes and any expenses.

    Now if you took that same $100 and made 6% every year for 5 year you would end up with $127.78 right?

    Wrong.

    You would have $133.82 or 21% more growth. Use that same math over longer periods of time and the difference becomes far greater. I've done the calculation for the S&P going back long periods and that 10% average return really equates to a real rate of return much closer to 7%.

    Now subtract taxes, inflation, expenses and if you make a real rate of 2-3% you should be fairly happy.

    And I haven't even gotten to the parts about market timing and the low interest rate/debt fueled growth in equity markets. I personally don't believe those conditions can last forever, but maybe they can. it would be highly unusual however.
     

    AtTheMurph

    SHOOTER
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 18, 2013
    3,147
    113
    I like buying REITS or MREITS, they have to return 90% of profits to shareholders in order to remain a REIT. The companies I own/owned is ticker NRZ, MFA, CIM, NLY. CVRR is another but a lot more dangerous, not a REIT but big 23% dividend. Just for example, if you buy NLY shares for $10 and buy $9 puts for April of 2019 for .15. Now you can collect the dividend but if market crashes you have the puts making you money. 1 put for every share you own. Or else you can just set stop losses and not buy the puts...or you can do both stop loss and puts.

    I trade these companies and usually buy or sell them several times a year so I make dividend and try to make another 10-15% in trading. Some are better trading stocks then others. Like NRZ and MFA are good for trading...NLY and CIM never really change. NRZ is what I consider to be the safest one.....you just have to buy it at right time.

    Keep in mind. I am not schooled in investing at all (other than being wiped out in 2000-2002). I am self taught and this is just my opinion. I would classify myself as more a gambler, than an investor.

    You will do great until the Black Swan arrives.
     

    rhino

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    30,906
    113
    Indiana
    The S&P 500 has done roughly 10% average total return since inception. 3% of that number is due to the CPI which is a very poor measure of actual inflation and probably understates real inflation by half. Here is an example.

    The single largest component of the CPI is housing. But it doesn't measure the cost of homes but rather "owner's equivalent rent" what a home owner would charge to rent their home. There are several problems with this method, first being someone who is not in the rental market probably has little knowledge of what rents are.

    Second problem is that interest rates themselves create a feedback loop in the reporting of inflation with such a measure. Someone who has a low interest mortgage would more likely think they would charge a lower rent since their debt service payments would be lower, when in fact the value of homes would be higher for the same reason.

    But let's stick with the 7% number from above. Now let's deduct an additional 25% for taxes (1.75%). You're at 5.25%.

    Let's now figure in volatility. What you say? The S&P has averaged 10%, we all know that. But what you probably do not know is how volatility affects actual returns.

    Take this example.

    You start with $100and invest in the S&P500. In year one you make 20%! In year two you make 10%! In year 3 you lose -20% :(, in year 4 make 10% and year 5 make 10%. I think you will agree that the average return over that 5yr period is 6% (20+10-20+10+10)/5 = 6

    At the end of that 5 year period you would have $127.78 before taxes and any expenses.

    Now if you took that same $100 and made 6% every year for 5 year you would end up with $127.78 right?

    Wrong.

    You would have $133.82 or 21% more growth. Use that same math over longer periods of time and the difference becomes far greater. I've done the calculation for the S&P going back long periods and that 10% average return really equates to a real rate of return much closer to 7%.

    Now subtract taxes, inflation, expenses and if you make a real rate of 2-3% you should be fairly happy.

    And I haven't even gotten to the parts about market timing and the low interest rate/debt fueled growth in equity markets. I personally don't believe those conditions can last forever, but maybe they can. it would be highly unusual however.

    THANK YOU.
     

    John3354

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Sep 29, 2018
    110
    18
    INDIANAPOLIS
    A 7% return? In the last 10 years?? That would be nice.

    Index funds would easily yield more than that. Especially if you are looking at 10 years, which would put us right at 2008 for the start. Investments from that date forward have paid really phenomenal returns in some years. The DJIA has averaged 11.56% if you are looking at 2009-2018.
     

    John3354

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Sep 29, 2018
    110
    18
    INDIANAPOLIS
    The S&P 500 has done roughly 10% average total return since inception. 3% of that number is due to the CPI which is a very poor measure of actual inflation and probably understates real inflation by half. Here is an example.

    The single largest component of the CPI is housing. But it doesn't measure the cost of homes but rather "owner's equivalent rent" what a home owner would charge to rent their home. There are several problems with this method, first being someone who is not in the rental market probably has little knowledge of what rents are.

    Second problem is that interest rates themselves create a feedback loop in the reporting of inflation with such a measure. Someone who has a low interest mortgage would more likely think they would charge a lower rent since their debt service payments would be lower, when in fact the value of homes would be higher for the same reason.

    But let's stick with the 7% number from above. Now let's deduct an additional 25% for taxes (1.75%). You're at 5.25%.

    Let's now figure in volatility. What you say? The S&P has averaged 10%, we all know that. But what you probably do not know is how volatility affects actual returns.

    Take this example.

    You start with $100and invest in the S&P500. In year one you make 20%! In year two you make 10%! In year 3 you lose -20% :(, in year 4 make 10% and year 5 make 10%. I think you will agree that the average return over that 5yr period is 6% (20+10-20+10+10)/5 = 6

    At the end of that 5 year period you would have $127.78 before taxes and any expenses.

    Now if you took that same $100 and made 6% every year for 5 year you would end up with $127.78 right?

    Wrong.

    You would have $133.82 or 21% more growth. Use that same math over longer periods of time and the difference becomes far greater. I've done the calculation for the S&P going back long periods and that 10% average return really equates to a real rate of return much closer to 7%.

    Now subtract taxes, inflation, expenses and if you make a real rate of 2-3% you should be fairly happy.

    And I haven't even gotten to the parts about market timing and the low interest rate/debt fueled growth in equity markets. I personally don't believe those conditions can last forever, but maybe they can. it would be highly unusual however.

    As a newbie I am not looking to get in to a flame war here, but there is a lot wrong with nearly every part of this. For starters, taxes are only paid when you cash out and that would be paid at a capital gains tax rate which is not the 25% you quoted. They would be 20% at most. You are not paying those taxes along the way, and you only pay capital gains taxes on the growth when you cash out.

    Average rate of return for market indexes really only works over long periods of time. 5 years is a bit too short to use an average rate of growth, and by only using the year end growth figures you are oversimplifying the rates by taking out all the waypoints in between. You cannot average the market returns by year and expect the calculations to hold. This:

    You start with $100and invest in the S&P500. In year one you make 20%! In year two you make 10%! In year 3 you lose -20% :(, in year 4 make 10% and year 5 make 10%. I think you will agree that the average return over that 5yr period is 6% (20+10-20+10+10)/5 = 6

    Is completely fallacious math. That is not how you figure average rate of return. Average rate of return would be calculated by calculating the average yearly growth in dollars and dividing it by number of years invested. So for your example it would be 5.56% average rate of return. That is where the discrepancy is. You cannot average the percentages because you have eliminated the compounding of growth over time.
     

    JettaKnight

    Я з Україною
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Oct 13, 2010
    26,541
    113
    Fort Wayne
    As an old-timer, I'll back you up.

    In many cases no taxes paid, e.g. a Roth IRA or HSA* used for medical bills.

    And, that that ARR calculation is :bs:.


    * My favorite investing vehicle: pre-tax in, tax free growth, no taxes coming out! WIN-WIN-WIN
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,155
    83
    Huntertown, IN
    If could do it over again, I would have bought an ounce of gold every month. Plus some quantity of silver. Every month.

    I would never gotten involved in the secondary stock market. Unless you have the companies stock certificate in your hand, you are in the secondary market. Pure speculation. Most will not understand. Until the market crashes.
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    93,335
    113
    Merrillville
    Thanks. I am always reluctant to disagree with someone on forums I am new to. You never know how it could go.

    Oh we have some fun discussions here.
    And some might bring up your low post count and comment on it.
    Part of that is because we've had people join and then troll.

    But, make your comments, stick around, minimize condescension, and most everyone will discuss things with you.
    But beware of "caliber", or "1911/Glock" discussions.
     

    historian

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 15, 2009
    3,301
    63
    SD by residency, Hoosier by heart
    Oh we have some fun discussions here.
    And some might bring up your low post count and comment on it.
    Part of that is because we've had people join and then troll.

    But, make your comments, stick around, minimize condescension, and most everyone will discuss things with you.
    But beware of "caliber", or "1911/Glock" discussions.

    And ACT's toilet...
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    93,335
    113
    Merrillville
    Now I am curious about this in-joke. Care to enlighten me?

    Anytime someone gets shot by an "unloaded" gun, he will type in an accent that it wasn't loaded.
    And, he often will tell a story about a shotgun going off when no one had their finger on the trigger.
     

    1775usmarine

    Sleeper
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    81   0   0
    Feb 15, 2013
    11,271
    113
    IN
    I'm getting 6.2% since 2012 on my railroad plan. I'm also increasing my contribution 1% every year till I get to 10% in 3 years when the company stops matching any more.
     
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