Dear trainers: The cost of the NRA *Basic* Pistol course is too damn high!

[Trigger Time]

Maybe gun school tuition should be tax deductible?

I agree. But would you actualy get full credit for it or would it be like charitable donations and unless you have a total of like $5k worth you don't get crap back? I'm not a tax expert just wondering.

 

[the1kidd03]

No doubt. It wasn't meant to be any sort of slight on Vert or anything. It's "us". We don't mind spending $45 for a box of WWB .45's and blowing through them in an afternoon or buying some accessory to try out. Heck, we don't even mind $100 cable bills and don't even complain much about $3-something-per-gallon gas anymore(as I mentioned in another thread). It's just that many don't see the value in spending $100+ on training.

Agreed. There is something to that. When it comes to training, people inherently don't want to spend much from the start. It's simply not something they can hold in their hand and see the reward of. Hence, the cheaper it is, the better. The same is true as simply part of a shopper in America. We always want the best deal for the $$.

But, a lot has to do with it being "basic" as well. People feel they know all they need to when it comes to basics, so such a title is simply not appealing. It's assumed to be boring and unnecessary. Throw in buzzwords like "tactical" instead, and you've instantly increased you value in marketing it (attracted more people's interest.) They see it as more of a value (worth the investment) because they think they'll be learning something they don't know already.

Do they actually know any of it? Not always of course. However, we're an individualistic culture; very independent. There's a lot of arrogance that goes along with that.

 

[VERT]

It's all about market research. It is reasonable priced. Actually the most reasonable for NRA curriculum in the area that I can think of.

However, we're also not considering his location, the demographics of people in those areas (such a BWframe points out, in rural areas people have the "I grew up around guns" mentality), distance they must drive (convenience), his avenue of advertising (if any), how much advertising he puts out, the type of person he's targeting in his advertisements, etc.

There is infinitely more to successful sales then purely price.

Correct advertising takes time and money. Super nice facilities take time and money. I have a job which already distracts me from shooting and INGO.

Oh and in no way have I felt slighted during this discussion. I am just agreeing that it costs money to offer these courses but there is local and affordable opportunities if people choose to take advantage.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Agreed. There is something to that. When it comes to training, people inherently don't want to spend much from the start. It's simply not something they can hold in their hand and see the reward of. Hence, the cheaper it is, the better. The same is true as simply part of a shopper in America. We always want the best deal for the $$.

But, a lot has to do with it being "basic" as well. People feel they know all they need to when it comes to basics, so such a title is simply not appealing. It's assumed to be boring and unnecessary. Throw in buzzwords like "tactical" instead, and you've instantly increased you value in marketing it (attracted more people's interest.) They see it as more of a value (worth the investment) because they think they'll be learning something they don't know already.

Do they actually know any of it? Not always of course. However, we're an individualistic culture; very independent. There's a lot of arrogance that goes along with that.

Good points. I will say that almost every training class i've ever taken (both voluntarily or as a condition of employment), I've been able to take something from it. Sometimes it's not just what was covered in the training but with the interaction with the instructor or the other students. (Which is one of the reasons I hate web/computer based training). And this includes even the mundane, annual update/refresher training they make us take at work. Of course it's up to me to go in there with the right attitude and be willing to participate in order to make it productive.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

*SIGH*
*snip*

I appreciate your frustration. Now you have a taste of mine and a little balance. Perhaps you could change your title to I CAN'T AFFORD TRAINING rather than TRAINING COST IS TOO %&#$ HIGH. Big difference. In mocking the curriculum you make your point moot. If all we cover is "an 8-hour this is the end the ouchy things we call bullets come from" *BASIC* pistol class" why do you care what we charge? You are clearly an expert and can learn nothing from such a waste of time.

I'd like to follow-up on what I said before. Nowhere did I say it was unreasonably priced. Yes, it is a triple-digit expense... and that is what keeps me from doing it. But, the trainers utilize a lot of their own time, effort, and materials in the courses... and that costs money. Won't find a bigger capitalist than me, and I hope they recoup most of their expenses on the courses.

I, personally, do not have the extra cash to spend on the course, though. That's saying nothing about what the price "should be". In the future, when I'm making more money and can afford to spend the extra on a training course for my wife and I, then I'd love to do so at the given cost.

 

[Jackson]

Ill give classes for free. Im not an instructor and I have no credentials. You provide all the guns, ammo, props, targets, equipment, shooting range, and insurance.

If you want an instructor with marketable experience, a developed curriculum, professionally printed materials, a network of support for the instructors, ammo and guns provided, insurance that pays out when you shoot yourself, and a certificate at the end... well, that stuff costs money.

 

[VERT]

Ill give classes for free. Im not an instructor and I have no credentials. You provide all the guns, ammo, props, targets, equipment, shooting range, and insurance.

If you want an instructor with marketable experience, a developed curriculum, professionally printed materials, a network of support for the instructors, ammo and guns provided, insurance that pays out when you shoot yourself, and a certificate at the end... well, that stuff costs money.

That sounds fair! When you coming down so I can take your course? I have guns, ammo, targets, props and insurance. Plus I don't need a certificate. Only hitch is my range is a wetland.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Huh. My wife and I took it for $25 a piece.

On the flip side. How much did your gun cost? How about ammo? Range membership? And $175 to learn how to use it all is too high?

All about priorities, I guess.

And total cost in an environment where 32 hours is considered a full-time job. Many will pay $300 for a firearm, and then get the LTCH, and the holster, the ammo and then realize they just spent over $500. Then ask them to pay another $100 for a course. Things do add up for folks that are living on the edge, like many folks are today.

Pay $500 for rent and heat or for a Glock? Priorities, man, just priorities. Then, add in another $100 for a training program? See the problem?

Sure, it is a matter of priorities. That is exactly the point the OP was making. After paying the rent, utilities, auto insurance, gasoline, and medical bills (two kids need vaccinations, one had an ear infection, and the other got bit by the neighbor's dog), there just may not be another $100 for the training class this month, or the Appleseed, or ammo. But maybe, we could manage $25 if I can get some overtime on Saturday.

Just trying to make the point that it is not as simple as you want to make it. No disrespect meant, director. But for some, it is a significant issue.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

And total cost in an environment where 32 hours is considered a full-time job. Many will pay $300 for a firearm, and then get the LTCH, and the holster, the ammo and then realize they just spent over $500. Then ask them to pay another $100 for a course. Things do add up for folks that are living on the edge, like many folks are today.

Pay $500 for rent and heat or for a Glock? Priorities, man, just priorities. Then, add in another $100 for a training program? See the problem?

Sure, it is a matter of priorities. That is exactly the point the OP was making. After paying the rent, utilities, auto insurance, gasoline, and medical bills (two kids need vaccinations, one had an ear infection, and the other got bit by the neighbor's dog), there just may not be another $100 for the training class this month, or the Appleseed, or ammo. But maybe, we could manage $25 if I can get some overtime on Saturday.

Just trying to make the point that it is not as simple as you want to make it. No disrespect meant, director. But for some, it is a significant issue.

It's about what people think they need and don't need.

You need the gun. You need the holster. You need the ammo. Of course you'll spend that money.

You can't compare that to a 100% optional training course. It's not required by law, it's not "needed" in some people's eyes, and therefore it can be skipped entirely.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Ill give classes for free. Im not an instructor and I have no credentials. You provide all the guns, ammo, props, targets, equipment, shooting range, and insurance.

If you want an instructor with marketable experience, a developed curriculum, professionally printed materials, a network of support for the instructors, ammo and guns provided, insurance that pays out when you shoot yourself, and a certificate at the end... well, that stuff costs money.

Agreed. No one suggests a $100 fee is inappropriate or that you do not deserve to be paid what you are worth. My point was that $75 is a big thing for some folks. For them, a baseball bat and the butcher knife are their only options.

 

[bwframe]

... Yes, it is a triple-digit expense... and that is what keeps me from doing it...

The link I posted above is $60 bucks for you and the wife to get started with this. It is also in your town.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

The link I posted above is $60 bucks for you and the wife to get started with this. It is also in your town.

Yup, and I'll check that out. I was just referring to the OP, and the subsequent counter-argument against OP

 

[VERT]

So lets attack this from a different angle. Not being smart here. If I were to offer up a $25 class, how many would want to attend?

I will put my money where my mouth is. 4 people, $25 each, class will be outside, no certificate. Just a simple 4-6 hour intro to practical handgun course. Here it is, set a date, let's do this thing.

 

[bingley]

Guns and shooting guns are expensive. Unless you think getting outfitted and trained properly is a right guaranteed under 2A, there is no constitutional right to defensive knowledge and ability for the poor. If you can't afford a measly $100 for a 8-hour class -- which isn't a bad deal at $12.50/hour -- then you are poor. Sorry. Hope that baseball bat works for ya.

There is a way to make instruction affordable even for the poor. Look at all these people who guy guns in Indiana. If everyone is willing to take two classes per year, the current firearm instructors will be swamped. They can probably charge less because of the economy of scale. But, guess what, most gun owners are willing to buy another AR, but they're not willing to spend a fraction of that to take a class.

We're not born knowing how to drive, shoot, and screw. I took driving classes and became a better driver. I took gun classes and became a better shooter. I took -- urh, is this a family-oriented forum?

 

[Jackson]

That sounds fair! When you coming down so I can take your course? I have guns, ammo, targets, props and insurance. Plus I don't need a certificate. Only hitch is my range is a wetland.

Wooded or grassy? I saw someone selling an air boat, or swamp boat thing with the propeller on the back... We could get that thing and work shooting from a moving platform. Im in if you pick up the boat cost.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Guns and shooting guns are expensive. Unless you think getting outfitted and trained properly is a right guaranteed under 2A, there is no constitutional right to defensive knowledge and ability for the poor. If you can't afford a measly $100 for a 8-hour class -- which isn't a bad deal at $12.50/hour -- then you are poor. Sorry. Hope that baseball bat works for ya.

There is a way to make instruction affordable even for the poor. Look at all these people who guy guns in Indiana. If everyone is willing to take two classes per year, the current firearm instructors will be swamped. They can probably charge less because of the economy of scale. But, guess what, most gun owners are willing to buy another AR, but they're not willing to spend a fraction of that to take a class.

We're not born knowing how to drive, shoot, and screw. I took driving classes and became a better driver. I took gun classes and became a better shooter. I took -- urh, is this a family-oriented forum?

Call someone a "poor" enough times, you're bound to offend them.

I'll guarantee I'm not poor. But perhaps I value my money differently than others. I am, by no means, poor.

 

[the1kidd03]

Correct advertising takes time and money. Super nice facilities take time and money. I have a job which already distracts me from shooting and INGO.

Oh and in no way have I felt slighted during this discussion. I am just agreeing that it costs money to offer these courses but there is local and affordable opportunities if people choose to take advantage.

That is my point. You haven't fulfilled all of your classes, but you also haven't put the effort in other areas to get the word out towards that end. It wasn't any way an "attack on you." Purely a demonstration of the number of things that it takes to make a business successful and the effort it takes for that for a small business owner. You have the most reasonable rates around for NRA curriculum, and still struggle to fill up classes without much if any advertising. That in itself says quite a bit, IMO.

The point is, there are a lot of factors on the business end of training. That's not to take away from the importance of effective pricing, but rather just to demonstrate it isn't the only factor which has an effect.

 

[the1kidd03]

Good points. I will say that almost every training class i've ever taken (both voluntarily or as a condition of employment), I've been able to take something from it. Sometimes it's not just what was covered in the training but with the interaction with the instructor or the other students. (Which is one of the reasons I hate web/computer based training). And this includes even the mundane, annual update/refresher training they make us take at work. Of course it's up to me to go in there with the right attitude and be willing to participate in order to make it productive.

That's the important thing about learning and training. People need to be in the right mindset to learn. When they are, they will always walk away with something, even if it's just an example of what not to do, it's still something learned. Figuring out how to target that is still something I try to investigate. In a corporate setting, it's easy. Motivating the free decision when it doesn't affect their career is a totally different situation.

 

[VERT]

Wooded or grassy? I saw someone selling an air boat, or swamp boat thing with the propeller on the back... We could get that thing and work shooting from a moving platform. Im in if you pick up the boat cost.

Rough grass with mud and ticks. Plus you will have to carry your gear in. I like that swamp boat idea.

 

[the1kidd03]

So lets attack this from a different angle. Not being smart here. If I were to offer up a $25 class, how many would want to attend?

I will put my money where my mouth is. 4 people, $25 each, class will be outside, no certificate. Just a simple 4-6 hour intro to practical handgun course. Here it is, set a date, let's do this thing.

Cost vs benefit. When someone reads an offer such as this, all they see is "intro to practical handgun" and $25. Their train of thought will be:

So, what exactly is "intro to practical handgun?" Is this like an NRA basic course? Will we be wasting time learning about firearms maintenance, safe storage, etc.? Will we be learning something new or just the same old stuff I can find everywhere with a different explanation to it? Is that information worth $25 and whatever it will keep me from by devoting to those 6 hours of training?

Not trying to give you a hard time at all. Just putting the typical thoughts out there which people will have and how they typically weigh purchase decisions for people to learn from/discuss here. It's all a cost vs reward decision for most people.