December 17, 1862 was an interesting day in American history.

[smokingman]

General Ulysses S Grant expelled Jews from his military district.With the following letter and orders.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into Post Commanders, that the Specie regulations of the Treasury Dept. have been violated, and that mostly by Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied of this have I been at this that I instructed the Commanding Officer at Columbus [Kentucky] to refuse all permits to Jews to come south, and frequently have had them expelled from the Dept. [of the Tennessee]. But they come in with their Carpet sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel any where. They will land at any wood yard or landing on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy Cotton themselves they will act as agents for someone else who will be at a Military post, with a Treasury permit to receive Cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy up at an agreed rate, paying gold.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] There is but one way that I know of to reach this case. That is for Government to buy all the Cotton at a fixed rate and send it to Cairo, St Louis, or some other point to be sold. Then all traders, they are a curse to the Army, might be expelled..[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]His orders.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] General Order Number 11, December 17, 1862[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, and also Department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 2. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 3. No permits will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application for trade permits.[/FONT]
​

The order went into immediate effect; Army officers ordered Jewish traders and their families in Holly Springs, Oxford, Mississippi, and Paducah, Kentucky to leave the territory. Grant may not have intended such results; his headquarters expressed no objection to the continued presence of Jewish sutlers, as opposed to cotton traders. But, the wording of the order addressed all Jews, regardless of occupation, and it was implemented accordingly.​

There were about 150,000 Jews in the United States.



More at the source,and a fascinating bit of history I had never heard about.The Day General Grant Expelled the Jews by Gary North

The Day General Grant Expelled the Jews

Did anyone read about this in a history book?

 

[Prometheus]

General Ulysses S Grant expelled Jews from his military district.With the following letter and orders.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be infused into Post Commanders, that the Specie regulations of the Treasury Dept. have been violated, and that mostly by Jews and other unprincipled traders. So well satisfied of this have I been at this that I instructed the Commanding Officer at Columbus [Kentucky] to refuse all permits to Jews to come south, and frequently have had them expelled from the Dept. [of the Tennessee]. But they come in with their Carpet sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to be a privileged class that can travel any where. They will land at any wood yard or landing on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy Cotton themselves they will act as agents for someone else who will be at a Military post, with a Treasury permit to receive Cotton and pay for it in Treasury notes which the Jew will buy up at an agreed rate, paying gold.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] There is but one way that I know of to reach this case. That is for Government to buy all the Cotton at a fixed rate and send it to Cairo, St Louis, or some other point to be sold. Then all traders, they are a curse to the Army, might be expelled..[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]His orders.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] General Order Number 11, December 17, 1862[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department, and also Department orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 2. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes and required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] 3. No permits will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose of making personal application for trade permits.[/FONT]
​

The order went into immediate effect; Army officers ordered Jewish traders and their families in Holly Springs, Oxford, Mississippi, and Paducah, Kentucky to leave the territory. Grant may not have intended such results; his headquarters expressed no objection to the continued presence of Jewish sutlers, as opposed to cotton traders. But, the wording of the order addressed all Jews, regardless of occupation, and it was implemented accordingly.​

There were about 150,000 Jews in the United States.



More at the source,and a fascinating bit of history I had never heard about.The Day General Grant Expelled the Jews by Gary North

The Day General Grant Expelled the Jews

Did anyone read about this in a history book?

In public skool? Nope. Just like in public skool I never learned about the real Abraham Lincoln and his thoughts about dealing with the 'african problem' once they were 'free'.

It wouldn't ... jive ... with the view of history some people want us to have. Hence the term "Civil War" for the war of northern aggression or War for Independence.

It was never a civil war. Not once did the South ever want control of the north or it's capital. It simply wanted to be left alone.

Ask the average American about it and see what they think about it? Hint, look at the last election for idea of how 'educated' the US populous is.

If there was one word to use when describing the average American, I'd say that ignorant would sum it up pretty well.

Then again you can't have a government like we do today with an informed populous.

 

[Lucas156]

Interesting but it used to be called the war of northern aggression. Here comes someone to tell me I'm stupid for still saying the south was right because I can't change it now....

 

[hornadylnl]

This is why it's important to stand up for the rights of even those who you disagree with. You may want them as allies the day you fall into the targeted group of the government.

 

[jrogers]

In public skool? Nope. Just like in public skool I never learned about the real Abraham Lincoln and his thoughts about dealing with the 'african problem' once they were 'free'.

It wouldn't ... jive ... with the view of history some people want us to have. Hence the term "Civil War" for the war of northern aggression or War for Independence.

Are those scare quotes around the phrase "African problem?" The question of how to handle the creation of a huge number of manumitted Africans in a system not prepared to support them certainly qualifies as a problem.

I'm also curious why you chose the word "jive" over the correct term "jibe." Are you attempting to make some thinly-veiled point about race?

It was never a civil war. Not once did the South ever want control of the north or it's capital. It simply wanted to be left alone.

Ask the average American about it and see what they think about it? Hint, look at the last election for idea of how 'educated' the US populous is.

If there was one word to use when describing the average American, I'd say that ignorant would sum it up pretty well.

Then again you can't have a government like we do today with an informed populous.

The War Between the States was most certainly a civil war. Whether the Southern states sought Northern territory is immaterial.

While we're at it, feel free to explain how the results of the last election indicate how "'educated' the US populous is." (sic) It's quite condescending of you to hold that the results somehow indicate ignorance on the part of the majority. You may be surprised to learn that many well-informed, educated members of the populace hold perfectly legitimate political positions that are not identical to your own!

 

[jamil]

Are those scare quotes around the phrase "African problem?" The question of how to handle the creation of a huge number of manumitted Africans in a system not prepared to support them certainly qualifies as a problem.

I'm also curious why you chose the word "jive" over the correct term "jibe." Are you attempting to make some thinly-veiled point about race?



The War Between the States was most certainly a civil war. Whether the Southern states sought Northern territory is immaterial.

While we're at it, feel free to explain how the results of the last election indicate how "'educated' the US populous is." (sic) It's quite condescending of you to hold that the results somehow indicate ignorance on the part of the majority. You may be surprised to learn that many well-informed, educated members of the populace hold perfectly legitimate political positions that are not identical to your own!

I was just about to rep you until I read the last paragraph. The last election was determined by pop culture.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not once did the South ever want control of the north or it's capital.

So, you are discounting:

1. The Battles of Bull Run?

2. The Battle of Fort Stevens (the last Confederate assault on Washington DC)?

3. The Confederate invasion of Kentucky, a neutral border state, turning it to the Union?

4. Lee's invasion of Pennsylvania and Gettysburg?

5 The Battle of Antietam?

And on and on.

Whatever the Southern war aims, it was a civil war.

 

[ATOMonkey]

General Grant was an idiot at just about everything he tried.

He was a very ambitious man though.

Between ambition and being the last man standing under Lincoln, (and very generous history writers) he garnered quite a bit of fame. His presidency was an utter disaster. He was a terrible businessman too and had he not died at 63, would have squandered all the money his memoirs made for his widow.

 

[ATOMonkey]

So, you are discounting:

1. The Battles of Bull Run?

2. The Battle of Fort Stevens (the last Confederate assault on Washington DC)?

3. The Confederte invasion of Kentucky, a neutral border state, turning it to the Union?

4. Lee's invasion of Pennsylvania and Gettysburg?

5 The Battle of Antietam?

And on and on.

Whatever the Southern war aims, it was a civil war.

Those battles were for the purpose of defeating the Federal Army, not for control of the entire country.

Further, the Confederacy KNEW they did not have the resources to fight a protracted war, which is why they were so aggressive at the onset, and also why they were eventually defeated. Well, that and Lee's stubborn pride and arrogance.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Those battles were for the purpose of defeating the Federal Army, not for control of the entire country.

Those battles that I listed, with exception of the invasion of Kentucky, were an attack upon Washington, D.C., the capital of the Union.

Fort Stevens park still exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Stevens_(Washington,_D.C.)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Well, that and Lee's stubborn pride and arrogance.

Lee may have been prideful and arrogant and lost the war for the South, but ultimately he saved the South by rejecting guerilla warfare in 1865.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Those battles that I listed, with exception of the invasion of Kentucky, were an attack upon Washington, D.C., the capital of the Union.

Fort Stevens park still exists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Stevens_(Washington,_D.C.)

Of course. Typically the capture of your capital city is your cue to capitulate.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Lee may have been prideful and arrogant and lost the war for the South, but ultimately he saved the South by rejecting guerilla warfare in 1865.

Indeed, the Federals were more than willing to burn half the country to the ground, and would have done so if the South had turned to guerilla warfare.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Agreed.

If Lee had not unconditionally surrendered all of the South would have been Arkansas or Mississippi.

Lee had plenty of experience with what the South was facing if he did not give it up: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Uncivil-War-Irregular-1861-1865-Commanders/dp/0806137363]Amazon.com: The Uncivil War: Irregular Warfare in the Upper South, 1861-1865 (Campaigns and Commanders) (9780806137360): Robert R. Mackey: Books[/ame]

 

[ATOMonkey]

Agreed.

If Lee had not unconditionally surrendered all of the South would have been Arkansas or Mississippi.

Lee had plenty of experience with what the South was facing if he did not give it up: Amazon.com: The Uncivil War: Irregular Warfare in the Upper South, 1861-1865 (Campaigns and Commanders) (9780806137360): Robert R. Mackey: Books

Or Georgia.

 

[indiucky]

Are those scare quotes around the phrase "African problem?" I'm also curious why you chose the word "jive" over the correct term "jibe." Are you attempting to make some thinly-veiled point about race?

Are you? I am just curious. You didn't like the use of the term "Black" in another thread and now you seem to have issue with the word "jive" which has been used by Americans of all races for at least 70+ years (often used interchangebly with "jibe".) The word "Jive" was (and is) a Ballroom dance style from the 40's and "shuck and jive" is another way of saying "song and dance" as when someone is not being forthright, i.e. "Don't give me that old song and dance again, just be honest" or "Oh that? He gave me the same old shuck and jive when I asked him about the price being higher than he quoted me." In the 70's the term "jive" expanded to mean general BS'ing and the Black community began to use it in the same way as in when someone is talking but not really being honest. Then disco came, the music died and we ended up with the song "Jive Talking" from the BeeGee's.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W42rMjYWlk[/ame]

What pray tell does the use of these words have to do with race and why do you interject race in threads so often?

 

[T.Lex]

Context is important. Grant's goal was to keep his expenses down by trying to monopolize cotton. He perceived "the Jews" as taking part in driving the costs up, so the order included that aspect. The overall goal wasn't anti-semitic, just anti-free market.

Not defending either proposition, just pointing that out.

Also, Lincoln rescinded the order within weeks, and I think Grant himself distanced himself from it later.

People do stupid stuff in stressful times. Even people who are otherwise honorable and decent.

 

[Liberty1911]

While we're at it, feel free to explain how the results of the last election indicate how "'educated' the US populous is." (sic) It's quite condescending of you to hold that the results somehow indicate ignorance on the part of the majority. You may be surprised to learn that many well-informed, educated members of the populace hold perfectly legitimate political positions that are not identical to your own!

Ignorant people tend to vote based on emotion, not intellect.

Just because they have a thin veneer of intellectuals leading them, does not mean they voted based on informed opinion or reason.

Look no further than the reasons their leaders give them to vote. They're emotional reasons, not intellectual.

 

[Liberty1911]

It was never a civil war. Not once did the South ever want control of the north or it's capital. It simply wanted to be left alone.

Interesting comment, and one that made me think.

It's a fine line to delineate, but a valid one nonetheless.

It made me think about the difference between what happened in Sudan vs Libya or Syria.

Rep to you for adding something intellectual to the discussion even if most people won't get it.

 

[Prometheus]

First, thank you to ATOmonkey for following up on the question posed, I agree with your responses.

Ignorant people tend to vote based on emotion, not intellect.

Just because they have a thin veneer of intellectuals leading them, does not mean they voted based on informed opinion or reason.

Look no further than the reasons their leaders give them to vote. They're emotional reasons, not intellectual.

Exactly. Someones ability to comprehend calculus or chemistry has nothing to their abilities in other areas. Perhaps these people have never seen the movie Rain-man? lol

Interesting comment, and one that made me think.

It's a fine line to delineate, but a valid one nonetheless.

It made me think about the difference between what happened in Sudan vs Libya or Syria.

Rep to you for adding something intellectual to the discussion even if most people won't get it.

Thank you.