Defeating Teeth Talk on 5.7 and Body Armour

[Fordtough25]

I co worker of mine bought one of the FN 5.7 pistols, for around $1200 IIRC. Plus ammo etc... I put a mag through it one day last year, meh. If it gets your jollies off then by all means enjoy it but I would rather shoot something else.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

To Kirk's original point - one of the "laws" of programming (as stated many years ago by Fred Brooks) is that "there is no silver bullet". The same is true of ammunition. There are things which serve their purpose - some a little better than others. But NONE are magical. There is no unicorn DNA in the 5.7x28 or the 50 GI or the 22 TCM. They are not as good - nor as evil - as their proponents - or their detractors wish to make them out to be.

Is it fun to try new stuff out? Yup. And sometimes, I find stuff I like. The TCM falls in that category. And with the 9mm barrel, if the TCM ever goes south - I'm not out anything. I like it - and I'll share news about what's worked for me.

Does it drill some pretty nasty holes - yup! Is it heck for fun - and easy recoil wise? Yup!

But it is not a silver bullet.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Again, the 5.7 is just a .22mag, nothing more.

Kinda, yea, but that is a gross oversimplification. 5.7x28 gets comperable velocity from a 5" barrel as a .22mag rimfire from a 16" barrel.

Thus, there is a noticable difference in velocity from comperable barrel length. Perhaps that difference is significant to you, and perhaps not.

If you want to find a cartridge of comperable case capacity, that generates similar velocity in a similar barrel length, the 5.7x28 is much closer to the .22 Hornet than the .22mag rimfire.

But whatever floats your boat - its obvious you have something invested in desparaging the 5.7 cartridge, so I wont argue. Just posting some of my observations from my own personal research.

 

[HoughMade]

To Kirk's original point - one of the "laws" of programming (as stated many years ago by Fred Brooks) is that "there is no silver bullet"...

You programmers need to get out more often:

Werewolf & Vampire Slaying Silver 45 ACP Rounds | Gunbot!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

its obvious you have something invested in desparaging the 5.7 cartridge,

1. I have nothing invested for or against in the 5.7.

2. The 5.7 is a matter of political debate amongst some quarters of the antis.

3. In order to respond intelligently, instead of gun shop teeth talkers, we need to know what the 5.7 is and is not.

Gun owner, know thy guns.

 

[Hornett]

I am of the same belief as Kirk.
Being an engineer, I looked up the figures.
Sure enough, in an identical barrel, the 5.7 will achieve more velocity than the 22 magnum.
Out of the 4.82" pistol barrel, the muzzle velocity is around 1560 fps for the 5.7 round.
This is compared to 1230 fps out of the shorter 4.3" Kel Tec PMR30.
You can see that the 5.7 round is a hotter round but not by a whole lot.

There are two things to be remembered.
Kirk has already stated one: The rounds with the armor piercing bullets are the ones that go through bullet proof vests.
These are rare and not easily obtained.
Second, the 2000 to 2200 fps velocities that you see published for the 5.7 are out of a 10" bull pup barrel.

So, yeah, Even though the 5.7 X 28 round can be devastating, when it is used in the FN FiveSeven it is closer to the 22 magnum than the aficionados would like to admit.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

My concern is more political than any "9 vs. .45, or Glock vs. 1911" or any of the other silly gun nut arguments that we have as a culture.

If one wishes to own a 5.7, then one should buy as many as he wants.

My concern is that we as a culture become more educated in order to respond to anti-gun arguments. We are better able to respond if we are educated instead of ignorant.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Removed due to inaccuracy on my part. (AP)

 

[roadrunner681]

My concern is more political than any "9 vs. .45, or Glock vs. 1911" or any of the other silly gun nut arguments that we have as a culture.

If one wishes to own a 5.7, then one should buy as many as he wants.

My concern is that we as a culture become more educated in order to respond to anti-gun arguments. We are better able to respond if we are educated instead of ignorant.

this here is why its important to know this stuff, anti gunners think its some magic gun that blows holes in stuff the way a 50 bmg does.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Brass fetcher measured the SS195 28gr lead free sporting rounds at 1,969fps from the 5" barrel of a FiveSeven pistol.

Most users get around 1,750fps from the 40gr V-max SS197 sporting round from the pistol.

Elite ammunitions equivelent of the FN duty round, their 'S4M' slings a 28gr aluminum core bullet at 2,600fps from the pistol, and 3,000 from the SMG. Their T6 is rated at 2,550 for its solid copper bullet from the same 5" tube. Essentially, the cartridge is capable of +500fps above the neutered sporting loads when used with light weight bullets. From the pistol.

The point I am making here is that the common verriety of 5.7x28 ammunition is not loaded anywhere near the potential limits of the cartridge, and it is still more than "just a 22 mag". I also find it rediculous for the 22 TCM "afficianados" to propose that the TCM is somehow in a different class than the 5.7, when they both have similar case capacities and use the same diameter bullets.

I understand that you are trying to debunk antis. That is an admerable goal, and there are plenty of myths about the 5.7x28 cartridge ... but you are not doing us any favors by taking things to the oposite extreeme, which is what I feel you are doing. If you want simplified facts for the gun community:
1) A 5.7 pistol is significantly more powerful than a .22mag pistol.
2) A 5.7 pistol penetrates body armor better than any .22 mag pistol.
3) The FiveSeven is a more reliable pistol than any .22 rimfire, mag or otherwise, and the only .22 caliber pistol in general use by any military force (unless you want to count the Walther P22s issued to some members of the Bangladesh security forces).
4) A 5.7 pistol can hold lots of cartridges
5) The FiveSeven pistol is very low weight (equivelent when loaded to a Glock when empty)
6) The FiveSeven pistol has very low felt recoil
7) The FiveSeven pistol is highly corrosion resistant.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

The point I am making here is that the common verriety of 5.7x28 ammunition is not loaded anywhere near the potential limits of the cartridge, and it is still more than "just a 22 mag". I also find it rediculous for the 22 TCM "afficianados" to propose that the TCM is somehow in a different class than the 5.7, when they both have similar case capacities and use the same diameter bullets.

Chalupa - I apologize - I was incorrect in my statement that the two rounds are in a different class. They are not. I was taking the numbers that people were posting here at face value. I did that because I have experience with one round (22TCM) - and admittedly do not with the other (5.7x28). If the values people were throwing out above were correct - there would be a substantial diff between the two rounds. As you correctly point out - that's not a fair picture of things. For political reasons - people have had an interest in either making the FiveSeveN out to be some kind of Devil Spawned Round From Hell or into a glorified 22 magnum that tosses out daisies and unicorn farts... Neither is a fair assessment. I will edit my post above to reflect the truth as best I can. It's true that I'm a fan of the 22 TCM - but not at the expense of the truth. And the truth appears to be that they are similar. So that's where I will leave it.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Chalupa - I apologize - I was incorrect in my statement that the two rounds are in a different class. They are not. I was taking the numbers that people were posting here at face value .... It's true that I'm a fan of the 22 TCM - but not at the expense of the truth. And the truth appears to be that they are similar. So that's where I will leave it.

Thanks.

I've been looking at the 22tcm as well. It looks like a neat cartridge, I'm just not a 1911 guy. I hope it becomes accepted enough to port it to other 45acp platforms.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Thanks.I've been looking at the 22tcm as well. It looks like a neat cartridge, I'm just not a 1911 guy. I hope it becomes accepted enough to port it to other 45acp platforms.

The big issue with porting it is the cartridge length. Charlie (NHT3) was showing me some efforts that folks are making to use it in a Glock 19 base with modified slide and barrel. The problem is, they are having to shorten the bullet length even more than it already is , in order to get it in the mags. I think you are thinking correctly in suggesting porting it to something 45 ish. Getting that extra length in the magwell is going to be the hard part.