Defending yourself with a firearm on school grounds

[Pyroponce]

Hello all,

So I finally got my wife interested in carrying

She works as a teacher at a middle school and is very concerned about being vulnerable to school shooters. I was doing a little research on laws regarding school firearms and noticed the bill that passed two years ago that allows a person to store a firearm stored out of sight in one's vehicle.

My question is this: if my wife had cause to resort to lethal force on school grounds (namely to protect her students), would retrieving a firearm from her vehicle be considered a felony?

 

[ATM]

Hello all,

So I finally got my wife interested in carrying

She works as a teacher at a middle school and is very concerned about being vulnerable to school shooters. I was doing a little research on laws regarding school firearms and noticed the bill that passed two years ago that allows a person to store a firearm stored out of sight in one's vehicle.

My question is this: if my wife had cause to resort to lethal force on school grounds (namely to protect her students), would retrieving a firearm from her vehicle be considered a felony?

Yes, but she wouldn't necessarily be charged.

If she has cause to use deadly force, she also has cause to face the possible charge after the fact.

 

[HubertGummer]

I honestly don't see how she could be prosecuted or convicted if her actions saved the kids....but in this world, you never know.

 

[Libertarian01]

Yes, but she wouldn't necessarily be charged.

If she has cause to use deadly force, she also has cause to face the possible charge after the fact.

I honestly don't see how she could be prosecuted or convicted if her actions saved the kids....but in this world, you never know.

I believe these ^^^ gentlemen nailed it.

It is my understanding that technically, legally she is committing a crime.

--- NOW show me a prosecutor (outside of Chicago or Commiefornia) that would be willing to risk their career on putting your wife in prison for saving children!

There is a big difference between breaking the law and being prosecuted for the same - See Hillary Clinton, personal server, classified information, ad nauseum for further analogy.

Regards,

Doug

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hello all,

So I finally got my wife interested in carrying

She works as a teacher at a middle school and is very concerned about being vulnerable to school shooters. I was doing a little research on laws regarding school firearms and noticed the bill that passed two years ago that allows a person to store a firearm stored out of sight in one's vehicle.

My question is this: if my wife had cause to resort to lethal force on school grounds (namely to protect her students), would retrieving a firearm from her vehicle be considered a felony?

In a situation such as an active shooter, the necessity defense would come in to play. I can't imagine an Indiana prosecutor would file a case such as that. The issue would be if there was gray area. The following jury instruction should give you an idea of what does/doesn't fall under the necessity defense.

Indiana Jury Instruction:
Instruction No. 10.
2100
.
Necessity.
The defense of necessity is an issue in this case.
The defense of necessity applies when:
(1) the act charged as criminal was the result of an emergency and was done to
prevent a significant harm;
(2) there was no adequate alternative to the commission of the act;
(3) the harm caused by the act was not disproportionate to the harm avoided;
(4) the Defendant had a good-faith belief that his/her act was necessary to prevent
greater harm;
(5) the Defendant’s belief was objectively reasonable under all the circumstances
of the case; and
(6) the Defendant did not substantially contribute to the creation of the emergency.
The State has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the
Defendant was not acting out of necessity, and may do so by disproving any one
of the above facts.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

My question is this: if my wife had cause to resort to lethal force on school grounds (namely to protect her students), would retrieving a firearm from her vehicle be considered a felony?

I could not see a jury in any Indiana county returning a guilty verdict with the fact pattern you described.

In a situation such as an active shooter, the necessity defense would come in to play.

By coming into play, you mean I would be bringing up repeatedly throughout all phases of the trial and rolling on the floor on closing argument if it somehow survived a TR50? Then, yes, it would come into play.

However, if you wife is worried about this scenario, then there is a fix. Simply talk to other teachers and lobby to have the school board authorize its teachers to carry guns. She can carry on school property with authorization.

 

[KittySlayer]

While she may escape prosecution the zero tolerance rules may cause her to lose her job.

 

[PMR]

I also work at a school, I would be concerned about justifying leaving a classroom of students during a lock down to retrieve her firearm. The shooter could be stopped before she returns, then she may not be able to get back into the building to attend to the students.

 

[bwframe]

If the school gave her permission, couldn't she carry in the classroom?

 

[Restroyer]

My wife also works at a school. She is not allowed to keep a handgun in her vehicle nor on her person while working at the school. Now, I am allowed to keep my gun in my vehicle while picking up or dropping off the kids at school (as long as it stays in my vehicle). She is not since she is employed by the school. I have asked LEO if she is allowed to keep a gun in her vehicle and used the same exact scenario the OP posted (my wife also has her LTCH). The LEO's said no, she would be violating the law and that faculty are not allowed to keep guns in their vehicles while working.

 

[Joniki]

My wife also works at a school. She is not allowed to keep a handgun in her vehicle nor on her person while working at the school. Now, I am allowed to keep my gun in my vehicle while picking up or dropping off the kids at school (as long as it stays in my vehicle). She is not since she is employed by the school. I have asked LEO if she is allowed to keep a gun in her vehicle and used the same exact scenario the OP posted (my wife also has her LTCH). The LEO's said no, she would be violating the law and that faculty are not allowed to keep guns in their vehicles while working.

Read this: https://www.littler.com/new-indiana...es-and-applicants-disclose-gun-possession-and

While it remains lawful for Indiana employers to have a policy prohibiting the possession and use of firearms and ammunition on company property (except in locked vehicles), this new law prohibits employers from taking any action to enforce that policy that might be construed as a requirement to disclose information about employees' or applicants' firearms and use thereof.

 

[lovemachine]

I also work at a school, I would be concerned about justifying leaving a classroom of students during a lock down to retrieve her firearm. The shooter could be stopped before she returns, then she may not be able to get back into the building to attend to the students.

This.

Firearms isn't always the best tool for defense.
How about another form of defense? You know, items in classrooms need fixed. A table leg, or even a desk leg can become loose. A small tool box, or bag, full of tools is alway useful in a school classroom. Make sure it contains a large hammer, and couple of pointy screw drivers....

 

[chipbennett]

The board of the school my children attend - consisting solely of me and my wife - has unanimously authorized the possession and carry of firearms on school property.

In all seriousness, though: perhaps we need to make some concerted, grassroots efforts to sit 2A advocates on local school boards.

 

[Pyroponce]

Excellent things to consider all around. Thanks guys

 

[Kokomo1]

The insurance carrier for the school has a much bigger say that any school board.

 

[Cameramonkey]

This.

Firearms isn't always the best tool for defense.
How about another form of defense? You know, items in classrooms need fixed. A table leg, or even a desk leg can become loose. A small tool box, or bag, full of tools is alway useful in a school classroom. Make sure it contains a large hammer, and couple of pointy screw drivers....

This. A 2.5lb metal head* fire extinguisher make excellent improvised weapons and are perfectly legal for a classroom. Just sayin...


* not the cheap ass Kidde units with the plastic heads you buy at walmart. those damned things are dangerous.

 

[chipbennett]

This. A 2.5lb metal head* fire extinguisher make excellent improvised weapons and are perfectly legal for a classroom. Just sayin...


* not the cheap ass Kidde units with the plastic heads you buy at walmart. those damned things are dangerous.

The best defense is creating an environment that is unattractive to would-be attackers - i.e. the presence of armed people within the facility. If you're dealing with an attacker who has selected your school for his attack, you're already at a decided disadvantage. If you're resorting to defending against a gun with a fire extinguisher, you've already lost.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The best defense is creating an environment that is unattractive to would-be attackers - i.e. the presence of armed people within the facility. If you're dealing with an attacker who has selected your school for his attack, you're already at a decided disadvantage. If you're resorting to defending against a gun with a fire extinguisher, you've already lost.

I dont disagree. But its an option in the meantime while we are fighting for their right to carry. I'm not advocating for giving up and using this as a primary defense.

Using your logic, my neighbor shouldnt buy mace (or do anything else for defense while out and about) after a direct threat to her life by her ex while she waits to get her LTCH so she can carry a firearm.

 

[Excalibur]

The worse is really you are damned if you are and damned if you don’t. If you don’t act, lives are at stake. If you do, then you could be charged for a crime of just taking your gun onto a gun free zone even though it is to protect lives. Most likely the court will slap charges to you. Ungrateful parents and school staff will still dislike you for “taking the law into your own hand”. It’s quite possible that the system will end up screwing you for doing a good deed. But doing the right thing is never an easy choice and in this case, to save lives, it isn’t a choice at all. You do the right thing and damn the consequences.

 

[chipbennett]

I dont disagree. But its an option in the meantime while we are fighting for their right to carry. I'm not advocating for giving up and using this as a primary defense.

Using your logic, my neighbor shouldnt buy mace (or do anything else for defense while out and about) after a direct threat to her life by her ex while she waits to get her LTCH so she can carry a firearm.

I'm not arguing that one should not use whatever means is at one's disposal in a given situation; rather, I'm pointing out the futility of relying on a fire extinguisher against an assailant armed with a firearm.

Sure, Carol Bowne could have purchased mace. It would have done her absolutely no good - and her attacker was armed with *just* a knife.

'No one helped her': NJ woman murdered by ex while awaiting gun permit | Fox News