DeSantis 2024?

[jamil]

If this is true than there cannot be an obstruction case for not handing them over even under subpoena.

As I said, that's a civil issue. The government should have brought a case in court if they thought the president was not entitled to have all the documents he had. You don't just raid his house unless you have ulterior reasons, which it appears obvious to me that there were. I'm not arguing that Trump had the right to have all the documents he had. Just that the remedy for Trump not honoring the subpoena is a court filing, and the courts ordering him to relinquish them, if warranted. Not a raid on his home and criminal charges.

 

[KG1]

As I said, that's a civil issue. The government should have brought a case in court if they thought the president was not entitled to have all the documents he had. You don't just raid his house unless you have ulterior reasons, which it appears obvious to me that there were. I'm not arguing that Trump had the right to have all the documents he had. Just that the remedy for Trump not honoring the subpoena is a court filing, and the courts ordering him to relinquish them, if warranted. Not a raid on his home and criminal charges.

You know that this has been my position as well. They needed to make a criminal case out of it to suit their agenda. A civil case doesn't get them there. They want Trump to be criminally convicted that's why they went that route.

 

[BugI02]

I don't know the number of ill-gotten votes, so it's impossible to know that the result would have been different.

Sounds like the dodge that somebody was very critical of IngoMike for using in another thread

Youa Culpa

 

[BugI02]

As I said, that's a civil issue. The government should have brought a case in court if they thought the president was not entitled to have all the documents he had. You don't just raid his house unless you have ulterior reasons, which it appears obvious to me that there were. I'm not arguing that Trump had the right to have all the documents he had. Just that the remedy for Trump not honoring the subpoena is a court filing, and the courts ordering him to relinquish them, if warranted. Not a raid on his home and criminal charges.

You raid his house because you want to control access to the papers, then what was classified is merely what you say was, there is no accessible evidence otherwise

For all we know, the menu for the state dinner for [pick a foreign government leader] could be 'classified' under those criteria

I want at least a description of some sort of what is claimed to be classified. I have a distinct suspicion they will not turn out to be sensitive military documents because I do not believe Trump is traitorous in any way

If it walks like a frame-up and quacks like a frame-up ...

 

[jamil]

Sounds like the dodge that somebody was very critical of IngoMike for using in another thread

Youa Culpa

What truth am I dodging? It was said in a conversation with SD4L, who doesn’t think any election shenanigans happened. I’ve made the same point clear before.

In the case of Mike, he’s trying to dodge criticisms of WLP, for some reason. Ironically he can’t find a “we don’t know” anywhere, when it comes to Kracken.

Basically, when information comes out against someone he wants to protect, oh, he’s got plenty of “we don’t know’s” to throw around. When information comes out that supports what he wants to believe, oh. He knows everything.

 

[jamil]

You raid his house because you want to control access to the papers, then what was classified is merely what you say was, there is no accessible evidence otherwise

For all we know, the menu for the state dinner for [pick a foreign government leader] could be 'classified' under those criteria

I want at least a description of some sort of what is claimed to be classified. I have a distinct suspicion they will not turn out to be sensitive military documents because I do not believe Trump is traitorous in any way

If it walks like a frame-up and quacks like a frame-up ...

The indictment did describe some specific documents. One was allegedly military secrets. Is the indictment accurate?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

While you are certainly free to believe what you wish, there are three co-equal branches, the President has the autonomous power to execute the oath as he sees fit and if congress wants to second guess that they can impeach, which they did and failed to convict.

The Eastman memo, "Pence gavels Trump re-elected", was the opposite of preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution.

Banana republic stuff that there...

Who does the constitution vest the final power over documents? It isn’t the courts. It isn’t the DOJ or FBI. Who is it?

All executive power rests with the President of the United States... that office owns all classified documents. And, unfortunately, that would be President Biden who, through the DOJ and FBI demanded citizen Trump return them.

Final power.

As of noon of inauguration day 2020, Trump had no more right to possess those documents than you or I.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

As I said, that's a civil issue. The government should have brought a case in court if they thought the president was not entitled to have all the documents he had. You don't just raid his house unless you have ulterior reasons, which it appears obvious to me that there were. I'm not arguing that Trump had the right to have all the documents he had. Just that the remedy for Trump not honoring the subpoena is a court filing, and the courts ordering him to relinquish them, if warranted. Not a raid on his home and criminal charges.

You know that this has been my position as well. They needed to make a criminal case out of it to suit their agenda. A civil case doesn't get them there. They want Trump to be criminally convicted that's why they went that route.

I think you both ignore that the President at the time was Biden, who through his DOJ/FBI demanded the return of the classified documents that did not belong to citizen Trump as the President, as of Jan 20, 2020 was named Biden, has ultimate authority over them.

Trump lied that he had returned them all the first time when he partially complied, and suburned his attorney to likewise lie... in federal court.

None of that strikes me in the least as civil court issues... but IANAL.

 

[Ingomike]

The Eastman memo, "Pence gavels Trump re-elected", was the opposite of preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution.

Banana republic stuff that there...

If a president believes that the constitution was thwarted by several states, as it was, he has every bit as much discretion as SCOTUS to react to it as he is co-equal to them.

All executive power rests with the President of the United States... that office owns all classified documents. And, unfortunately, that would be President Biden who, through the DOJ and FBI demanded citizen Trump return them.

Final power.

As of noon of inauguration day 2020, Trump had no more right to possess those documents than you or I.

You are not including the power to declare any documents from his administration personal, and that no one can supersede that authority. No one, including SCOTUS has the power to say different as the courts have ruled pretty consistently. Now if Trump possessed documents from the Biden administration that is a different story….

 

[Ingomike]

I think you both ignore that the President at the time was Biden, who through his DOJ/FBI demanded the return of the classified documents that did not belong to citizen Trump as the President, as of Jan 20, 2020 was named Biden, has ultimate authority over them.

Trump lied that he had returned them all the first time when he partially complied, and suburned his attorney to likewise lie... in federal court.

None of that strikes me in the least as civil court issues... but IANAL.

Trump administration docs do not belong to Biden alone if Trump possessed them, though Biden may possess them if they also were in the possession of his administration.

 

[BugI02]

Biden, who through his DOJ/FBI demanded the return of the classified documents that did not belong to citizen Trump as the President, as of Jan 20, 2020 was named Biden, has ultimate authority over them.

Good of you to admit the president has 'ultimate authority over [classified documents]'

So what if Trump declassified them and made them part of his personal papers at noon on January 19th - and I think you mean 2021, on January 20, 2020 Trump was just beginning his 4th year of his first term

Let me guess, Trump still had absolute authority over them (you said so yourself), but 'tHeRe's nO ReCoRd hE dEclAsSiFiEd ThEm'

 

[KG1]

What seems to be lost here is that the documents were composed during the Trump administration therefore he has the sole Executive authority over those documents and whether to keep them or not upon leaving office as personal remnants from his administration.

He could've just as easily chosen to burn all of those documents before leaving office as well, that would've been his Executive prerogative to do so but he chose to keep them instead as personal records from his administration upon leaving office.

The boxes of documents from his administration were transferred from the WH to Mar a Lago reportedly two weeks before Trump's administration ended when he was still Chief Executive and that's where he chose to keep then as personal records upon leaving office. He made the decision what to do with them as a Chief Executive.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If a president believes that the constitution was thwarted by several states, as it was, he has every bit as much discretion as SCOTUS to react to it as he is co-equal to them.

Interesting you would say that as the Constitution grants the President zero power over state certifications of electors. Zero.

His only remedy would be with the state legislatures and courts... which he failed and lost... the states certified their electors and only the states have that power.

You are not including the power to declare any documents from his administration personal, and that no one can supersede that authority. No one, including SCOTUS has the power to say different as the courts have ruled pretty consistently. Now if Trump possessed documents from the Biden administration that is a different story….

No, I'm not including it because such a power does not exist... nor did he avail himself of it. Just made this all up when caught with his pants down... caught red-handed with documents he asserted he had turned over and caused his attorneys to lie to the same account.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

What seems to be lost here is that the documents were composed during the Trump administration therefore he has the sole Executive authority over those documents and whether to keep them or not upon leaving office as personal remnants from his administration.

He could've just as easily chosen to burn all of those documents before leaving office as well, that would've been his Executive prerogative to do so but he chose to keep them instead as personal records from his administration upon leaving office.

The boxes of documents from his administration were transferred from the WH to Mar a Lago reportedly two weeks before Trump's administration ended when he was still Chief Executive and that's where he chose to keep then as personal records upon leaving office. He made the decision what to do with them as a Chief Executive.

Which none of that matters as his authority over those documents expired at 12:01 pm on Jan 20,2020 and transferred to Biden.

The law is pretty clear, official acts of the President, even those by his own hand, which these are not, belong to the office of the President, not to the individual leasing that space.

They are US government property over which the President has authority while occupying the office... he can no more "grant" them to himself than he could the Resolute Desk.

But either, the documents or the desk, if he wanted them burned on the White House lawn while still president, yeah, he could order that.

 

[KG1]

Which none of that matters as his authority over those documents expired at 12:01 pm on Jan 20,2020 and transferred to Biden.

The law is pretty clear, official acts of the President, even those by his own hand, which these are not, belong to the office of the President, not to the individual leasing that space.

They are US government property over which the President has authority while occupying the office... he can no more "grant" them to himself than he could the Resolute Desk.

But either, the documents or the desk, if he wanted them burned on the White House lawn while still president, yeah, he could order that.

Look we've all covered this same ground previously ad nauseum and we've all voiced our opinions before regarding the document subject. I'm not looking to rehash it any further all over again with you. Feel free to knock your socks off with others about it though if you want and they are willing.

I'm more interested to see what kind of SCOTUS opinion might be announced come 10am this Monday morning. Many including myself are anticipating that it could be an opinion about the 14th Sec 3 disqualification clause. And no, I'm not gonna argue with you about that right now either in case you are so inclined.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[Ingomike]

Interesting you would say that as the Constitution grants the President zero power over state certifications of electors. Zero.

If such harms the constitution he absolutely has the right to defend it, and he gets to define the harm. Congress can him if they don’t like it.

No, I'm not including it because such a power does not exist... nor did he avail himself of it. Just made this all up when caught with his pants down... caught red-handed with documents he asserted he had turned over and caused his attorneys to lie to the same account.

I hope this gets decided because every case close to this has gone in favor of the President. Who has greater constitutional authority over the documents of his administration than the President? Who has greater constitutional authority over how and when documents are classified, declassified, and determined to be personal?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If such harms the constitution he absolutely has the right to defend it, and he gets to define the harm. Congress can him if they don’t like it.

The executive power, as well as legislative and judicial, are defined AND LIMITED to those powers expressly granted in the Constitution... please point to the part of the Constitution that grants any such power... let alone the power to make it up.

I hope this gets decided because every case close to this has gone in favor of the President. Who has greater constitutional authority over the documents of his administration than the President? Who has greater constitutional authority over how and when documents are classified, declassified, and determined to be personal?

Two points:

1. Documents: Given the way Trump handled - I would say grossly mishandled - the documents in his possession, I would hope not. IANAL but my guess is that if the documents were produced BY THE GOVERNMENT, they cannot be made personal as they belong TO THE GOVERNMENT and the office of the President, not the man... but if they were literally made by the President's own hand, they might rule he gets to decide as sole arbiter.

And, I agree, it has not been decided by the ultimate arbiter, the SCOTUS. If I had to guess, I'd put my money on the split I imply above above... but it is a legitimate question if the PRA is constitutional.

2. Obstruction charges: Doesn't matter if they were both 100% "his" in #1 above, both the PRA documents and the national security documents... he should have argued that in court instead of LYING that he complied with the subpoena, causing his attorneys to LIE to the same and conspiring with others in obstructing the execution of a federal subpoena by attempting to hide the documents.

 

[Ingomike]

The executive power, as well as legislative and judicial, are defined AND LIMITED to those powers expressly granted in the Constitution... please point to the part of the Constitution that grants any such power... let alone the power to make it up.


Two points:

1. Documents: Given the way Trump handled - I would say grossly mishandled - the documents in his possession, I would hope not. IANAL but my guess is that if the documents were produced BY THE GOVERNMENT, they cannot be made personal as they belong TO THE GOVERNMENT and the office of the President, not the man... but if they were literally made by the President's own hand, they might rule he gets to decide as sole arbiter.

And, I agree, it has not been decided by the ultimate arbiter, the SCOTUS. If I had to guess, I'd put my money on the split I imply above above... but it is a legitimate question if the PRA is constitutional.

2. Obstruction charges: Doesn't matter if they were both 100% "his" in #1 above, both the PRA documents and the national security documents... he should have argued that in court instead of LYING that he complied with the subpoena, causing his attorneys to LIE to the same and conspiring with others in obstructing the execution of a federal subpoena by attempting to hide the documents.

The PRA enforcers have backed down every time they get close to having to go to the big boy courts against a president. I believe because they know they will lose to the president, so they keep their power by not letting it get that far.

That said as with what has occurred several times, they will blow up anything to get the bad orange man…

 

[Ingomike]

The executive power, as well as legislative and judicial, are defined AND LIMITED to those powers expressly granted in the Constitution... please point to the part of the Constitution that grants any such power... let alone the power to make it up.

I still want to know just who has this power over the President? Who has greater constitutional authority over the documents of his administration than the President? Who has greater constitutional authority over how and when documents are classified, declassified, and determined to be personal?

If others have the power over the documents just who is it and where do they get that power?

The funny thing about these topics is folks have strong opinions on this because they find it a little uncomfortable that the president has these powers but say little about executive overeach with EO’s and the agencies under the executive usurping the power of congress.