Dillon 308 carbide die head scratcher

[IndyGlockMan]

So I delved into reloading 308 for my SCAR 17 and was ready to start sizing brass.
I've been reloading pistol and .223 for about 2 years with pretty good success.
Got the fancy schmancy Dillon carbide die set, and properly set it up in the press (Dillon XL650)... raised the platform, screwed the die in until it touches - then back off half a turn (per instructions).
Lubed up some freshly cleaned pieces with Dillon case lube... I like Dillon stuff ...

Holy crap it was nearly impossible to get the brass in and out of the die! Couldn't even get the handle half way down before having to go back up.
I broke out some gun oil and really lubed up a piece and ran it through all the way, and it was easier but still not at all what I was expecting. Very difficult.
I adjusted the die down until it sized the brass down to the shoulder and it head-spaced properly in my Dillon case gauge.
Still had to lather the brass in oil to get them to run through but it was still very difficult.
This is not fun at all.

On about the 10th piece (Lake City)... STUCK! Broke the rim off trying to get it out... and yes, the case was very well lubed
So, I followed the instructions and got the stuck case out, but it was a major PITA.
It came about half way out, then I had to put the die in a vice, clamp on some vice grips, and tap the brass the rest of the way out.

Ok, great... Cleaned the die, set it back up in the press, and tried a couple more.
Now, the brass won't head space. I adjusted it all the way down and back up again and the brass will not go all the way down in the case gauge.
The brass is just shy of getting down even to the top edge in the case gauge.
I tried a few different head stamps of brass (it's a mix of range pickup) and it didn't make any difference. All Military type surplus brands.

Ok, while typing this, I pulled out a few pieces of Federal brass that I think was Gold Medal Match ammo... and it sized easier and head spaced OK, but just barely.

One last thing, I'm wondering if I dislodged the carbide insert inside the sizing die because it's sticking out of the bottom of the housing a little bit now.
I don't remember what it looked like before, so it may be fine, but it's something I wanted to check with you guys and see if it looks normal to you...

 

[17 squirrel]

First question, is this once fired LC mil brass you are trying to load ?
#2. Dillon spray lub will separate if left in the cold or someti.e just being g left on the shelf, you have to shake the crap out of it. If its separated after being shaken the first few pumps of spray will be nothing but alcohol.
Did you allow the alcohol to vapor off the Dillon lube before you tried to size the brass. Like more than a few minutes ?
#3. You should never substitute oil for sizing lube, sizing lube left in a case will not contaminate powder or primers. Oils can contaminate..
#4. If I were to guess I think you pulled the Carbide insert out alittle. It would surprise me if Dillon left the Carbide unprotected like that. If dropped the Carbide can crack or shatter. I would think if now you can't get cases resized since you had a stuck case, I would think you pulled the insert out and with that you have made the die longer. And if that's the case you wouldn't get a case sized fully.
#5. I'm curious about what brass you are using, from what I know about Dillons Carbide rifle dies, that's a commercial die and I believe it's a small base die so all brass that is run by through it will load in any 308 rifle reliably.
And if you are trying to load once fired LC my friend its some work sometimes. It's been shot out of a MG and most likely is not only stretched its been blown out also. You might find its easier to resize with a regular die and then run it through the Dillon die. Or use the Dillon die in a single stage first.

Can I ask what was the reason for you to buy the Carbide rifle dies ?

With your die, remove the center stem, then straiten out a paper clip and bend maybe a 1/4" L on one end. Insert the bent end above the Carbide insert and see if you feel a step where the insert has moved down from. That will tell you if the insert has moved.
Also with the stem removed you might be able to look down inside of the die with a flashlight and see if its moved.

 

[Leo]

+1 what he said.

 

[billybob44]

+ 2 What he said..

 

[IndyGlockMan]

Good idea with the paper clip!
I stuck it up there and I can feel a ridge up there just before the shoulder, so yeah, I think the carbide sleeve got pulled out a little.
That shows how difficult it's been to get brass in and out of the die.

It's mostly LC once or twice fired brass that came from my SCAR 17 and some range pick up from local clubs.
I highly doubt there is any machine gun fired brass in the mix.

I bought the carbide die because I thought it might be easier or smoother to use. Maybe less temperamental than the standard die... wrong!

The Dillon lube I have is less than a year old and I always shake it up good so it's mixed.
Only reason I put the oil on there was because I was just trying to get the cases to go in and out of the sizing die with out having to use both hands to get the handle up and down.
I would of course clean that brass again to remove all the oil before loading it. No worries.

Using just the Dillon lube, it was impossible to fully cycle the handle up and down.
There has to be something wrong because it not supposed to be nearly that hard.
Even with the case oiled up, it feels like it may get stuck on the down stroke every time.

Ok, so I need a new sizing die now...
I wonder if Dillon will take it back?

 

[Leo]

Call dillon, I'll bet they will help.

 

[17 squirrel]

Yes, i definitely would be the phone with Dillon.. I can't imagine they would not fix or replace that die.
When the Dillon lube has dried, are the cases slippery ?

Do you have access to a single stage press that you can try your Carbide die in ?
Do you have someone that will let you borrow a regular sizing die to try on your Dillon machine ?

 

[IndyGlockMan]

The Dillon lube was not super slippery. Feels just ever so slightly greasy, but not sticky.

No single stage press access.
I thought about buying a short/shoulder sizing die to try.
Maybe a standard Dillon full length (non-carbide).

I want to be able to run these cases through my case feeder & press like in a normal progressive type system because I have a couple thousand I want to load up in the next few months.
I'm open to options, just need this to run with out pulling all the muscles in my arm trying to cycle the thing.

I've also thought about going with a Dillon 1200 or 1500 rapid trim.
they size the brass in the trimmer.

 

[17 squirrel]

I would try just a standard sizing die.
I use a Giraud trimmer myself.
When we size we also size a few thousand of the same case each time.
I'm a huge Dillon fan, but with looking at there trimmer I didn't feel it would hang in there for the long run. The few commercial guys I asked about it kinna wrinkled there noses when asked about Dillons trimmer. I very well could be wrong, but you don't really hear from home reloaders that use one.
It also looks like a laminate trimmer and I wonder if it's loud like the small routers are ???

Edit... The see that Dillon has added a 1500 trimmer to there lineup...that trimmer is much larger than what they offered when I was looking. It might be the Shizzle...

 

[BGDave]

Not looking good. This is my 308 carbide die. And, what 17 said about the Dillon lube. It takes awhile for the spray to dry. Might also try a different shell holder. Some are slightly thinner. Good luck.

 

[Woobie]

Something like drawing compound might help with the sizing. Of course you'll want to clean the cases well afterwards. Also, you might take a steel sizing die and polish the inside a bit, maybe .005" or so. You'll need a way to chuck it in something to do this. Then you can make sizing a 2 stage process. Sounds like your brass is pretty huge, and doing the process incrementally might help. My Dad retired as a journeyman tool and die maker, and I was over there this morning. I asked him about pressing that carbide insert back in. If you've got access to a press, it sounds like you could do that without damaging it if Dillon won't fix the die. Of course, any kind of impact is your enemy. I'm not sure how well it will stay in after doing that, though.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

Yep, my carbide sleeve definitely moved out.
thank you for that photo!
Wow, that just shows had bad that piece was stuck and it was well lubed too.

Do you have any trouble sizing 308 brass? What I mean is, how hard is it to move the handle up and down??
Is it supposed to be that difficult?

Maybe I got a die that was off a little?
The brass I did manage to size came out nice, but it was a fight getting the handle up and down.
I want it to be smooth like when loading pistol or even 223

 

[rvb]

I'm a huge Dillon fan, but with looking at there trimmer I didn't feel it would hang in there for the long run. The few commercial guys I asked about it kinna wrinkled there noses when asked about Dillons trimmer. I very well could be wrong, but you don't really hear from home reloaders that use one.
It also looks like a laminate trimmer and I wonder if it's loud like the small routers are ???

I've had a 1200 for a few years. just done .223 w/ it so far, but will probably start using it for .308 soon. processed many thousands of pieces of brass. still on first blade. yes it's loud as hell. I wear ear pro.

-rvb

 

[Leo]

I seldom size rifle brass on the Dillon. Not that it ever gave me any trouble, but I do my inspection process, trimming, etc after sizing so I do that on a Redding Boss single stage. That said, I have never had any trouble with Dillon (or other similar lanolin based lubes) with regular, non carbide dies. I have never even owned a carbide rifle die, even though that is all I own for pistol calibers. I have used RCBS, LEE, Hornady, Redding and Lyman dies with no issue. When the alcohol evaporates from the case lube, it does not feel gooey or slippery, but it does keep the brass from sticking in the die. I have resized a bucket full of LC brass from machine gun use back to the tighter rifle specs with no problems. I have even reformed brass from one caliber to another without sticking issues, and that draws a lot more resistance than normal sizing should.

Even though the handle stroke on the press is firmer than with pistol, neither going in or back out is much strain. I never feel like I am going to tip over the loading table or like I am doing pull ups in the gym. Even the little, short arm LEE challenger press is adequate.

Do you have gauging to measure your case after sizing? One of the areas of interference is when you have thick cases and the inside neck sizing part is a little on the big side and the outside neck sizing part is a little on the tight side of spec. The Redding dies have a carbide inside sizer button. ( a little football shapped part) that is available in a variety of precise sizes. I have used different ones for different applications. On a simple Lee full length sizing die, the inside diameter is a fixed portion of the decapper rod. I have measured them with a micrometer and chucked them in a drill, spinning against emery cloth of various grit. Some times taking .001" or .002 off that diameter makes a huge difference. (Provided it is still within the usual specs) I also follow up with very fine grits of abrasive and polish them up for smoother operation.

 

[17 squirrel]

I've had a 1200 for a few years. just done .223 w/ it so far, but will probably start using it for .308 soon. processed many thousands of pieces of brass. still on first blade. yes it's loud as hell. I wear ear pro.

-rvb

I figured it would be a screamer..LOL.. Screamers are fun, just not in the loading room. . For normal use I'm sure it will last a well deserved lifetime. But with some of us we load thousands in a day. And it just will not hold up, I'm sure that's why Dillon added a larger machine for the heavier use home loaders and commercial loaders.
My son and I were considering going into the brass forming business when 300 Whisper started taking off, and that's when I asked the guys who run 1050's what they thought about the trimmer Dillon sold then. Each one told me to look elsewhere. A few years later I asked Andrew the same question. And he tried them and quickly found the not suitable for heavy home or commercial use.

And I'm not kicking anyone, if I loaded only a few thousand a year, that's the trimmer I would have bought.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

Called Dillon. They are going to warranty the die, but I have to ship it back to them which is no big deal.
They asked that I send a few pieces of the brass back with it. Happy to do that as well.
He said they will most likely replace it.
He also said that the die could have been made on the end of a production run and might have been on the edge of spec.
So sounds like this may have happened before.

Still happy with Dillon.

 

[17 squirrel]

They will take care of it.. What's your plan now ? Wait ?

 

[Cerberus]

I size all LC brass, and most other rifle brass other than .223 in a single stage because it can take some work at times. I am still working my way of a supply of surplus MG fired brass though. The surplus stuff of mine often requires a regular die followed by a small base, which my particular M1A seems to prefer.

 

[17 squirrel]

I size all LC brass, and most other rifle brass other than .223 in a single stage because it can take some work at times. I am still working my way of a supply of surplus MG fired brass though. The surplus stuff of mine often requires a regular die followed by a small base, which my particular M1A seems to prefer.

I'm with you on the small base die. Any brass I run that's in 5.56 , 7.62 , 30-06 or 300 win. That gets reloaded in my shop goes through a small base die.
No matter what rifle it gets loaded in, it will chamber correctly. Bolt , semi, pump or lever, makes no difference.
Only bolt guns that are worthy get the redding body and neck dies.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

They will take care of it.. What's your plan now ? Wait ?

yep, just wait.
No problemo