Do we give up our constitutional rights when we buy a hunting license?

[jwglock]

I've been mulling this over for several days now...

U.S. Constitution, Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

IC 14-22-11-14
Possession; display to enforcement officers; alteration
Sec. 14. (a) A person who has procured a license or permit required under this article must have the license or permit on the person when engaged in the pursuit for which the license or permit was issued. Upon request of an officer authorized to enforce this article or the fish and wildlife laws of Indiana, the person must produce and exhibit the license or permit. If the person does not produce and exhibit the license or permit, the person may not engage in the pursuit authorized by the license or permit.


Why is my hunting license different than my driver's license? Law enforcement must see an infraction to pull me over and ask for my license and registration and no way is he gonna search me or my vehicle without probable cause or a warrant. But, a conservation officer, without observing anything in violation or amiss, can ask to see my hunting license and then proceed to search my equipment (boat, ammo on my person, blind bag and blind) even if I am on my own property.

Am I missing something here???

I strive to hunt legally. I reread the laws every year. I gladly purchase the necessary licenses. I practice conservation above and beyond the letter of the law. But I have to say I see CO's often coming very close to hunter harrassment!

I am over 50 years old and for 40+ years I never once was checked by a CO. So far it's been twice this year. Once they interupted our hunt (the only flock of the day flew over while they were inspecting our guns) and once before we were even hunting!

I'm not trying to hide anything from them and I do want the poachers and illeagal hunters arrested. But come on, where do we draw the line? I Do believe it is important to exercise my rights or we all end up losing them.

OK, the law says I have to show the CO my hunting license or not hunt. Is that it? He asks to see my hunting license, I don't and simply go home???? (assuming I have not yet started huntin).

The CO asks to see my shotgun and search my boat. What if i respectful decline on my 4th admendment rights???

OK folks, (CO's included) let me hear your thoughts. Please, sincere posts only.

 

[Scutter01]

IC 14-22-11-14
Possession; display to enforcement officers; alteration
Sec. 14. (a) A person who has procured a license or permit required under this article must have the license or permit on the person when engaged in the pursuit for which the license or permit was issued. Upon request of an officer authorized to enforce this article or the fish and wildlife laws of Indiana, the person must produce and exhibit the license or permit. If the person does not produce and exhibit the license or permit, the person may not engage in the pursuit authorized by the license or permit.


Why is my hunting license different than my driver's license? Law enforcement must see an infraction to pull me over and ask for my license and registration and no way is he gonna search me or my vehicle without probable cause or a warrant. But, a conservation officer, without observing anything in violation or amiss, can ask to see my hunting license and then proceed to search my equipment (boat, ammo on my person, blind bag and blind) even if I am on my own property.

I don't see anywhere in your quote of the Statute that says they can search your belongings. It just says you have to produce a permit upon demand.

 

[Eddie]

My reading

My reading of that statute is that if you are hunting, the CO can ask to see your hunting license. (Probably to make sure you are properly licensed.) If you can't show him a license, then you have to stop hunting. If he has probable cause to search, then he can search, but otherwise that statute just permits them to make sure that you have a hunting license, it doesn't change the search and seizure laws.

 

[Ramen]

Since it is legal to carry a long arm, a Conservation Officer would have to follow you around to see if you continued to hunt. I mean, you could walk around all day with the gun over your shoulder and not be hunting.


Just don't have any squirrels in your vest!

 

[dross]

No violation of rights here. Game animals belong to all of us equally, so it is a perfectly legitimate role of government to enforce those laws.

And as far as I know, the police can ask for your driver license at any time you're operating a vehicle and you have to produce it.

If you are walking around on state lands with equipment capable of taking game, you are presumed to be hunting. If you're on private lands with equipment capable of taking game, and a wildlife officer asked for your license, what could he do if you said you weren't hunting, just walking on your own property with a rifle. Now, if you have some rabbits in your game bag, 'nother story.

 

[Eddie]

If you're on private lands with equipment capable of taking game, and a wildlife officer asked for your license, what could he do if you said you weren't hunting, just walking on your own property with a rifle. Now, if you have some rabbits in your game bag, 'nother story.

If you are on your own land you may not need a permit, depending on the animal/season. The bad thing would be if the guy cited you for hunting without a license and then you had to go to the time and trouble of defending yourself in court.

 

[inxs]

If you are on your own land you may not need a permit, depending on the animal/season. The bad thing would be if the guy cited you for hunting without a license and then you had to go to the time and trouble of defending yourself in court.

An interesting point would be if I were on my own property and I were approached by a Conservation Officer I would hope the first question would be "do you have a right to be here?" cause I would probably return the question....

 

[INGunGuy]

An interesting point would be if I were on my own property and I were approached by a Conservation Officer I would hope the first question would be "do you have a right to be here?" cause I would probably return the question....

BINGO, we have a winner...

INGunGuy

 

[dross]

An interesting point would be if I were on my own property and I were approached by a Conservation Officer I would hope the first question would be "do you have a right to be here?" cause I would probably return the question....

I'm not sure about Indiana, but in Colorado a wildlife officer has the power to come on your property to regulate hunting activity, because even though the property may be yours, the game is not.

Not that I've ever heard of that actually happening. I'd suspect they'd wait for some kind of probable cause.

 

[singlestacksig]

yes , conservation officers can enter your land anytime..

 

[langb29]

I'm not sure about Indiana, but in Colorado a wildlife officer has the power to come on your property to regulate hunting activity, because even though the property may be yours, the game is not.

Not that I've ever heard of that actually happening. I'd suspect they'd wait for some kind of probable cause.

Good point, and I agree that they would probably wait until you are actually "hunting". I think in most states CO's have much more power than LEO's, with the ability to search, seize, etc. based on suspicion. The statute is written as though a CO would stop you from hunting before or during a hunt if you cannot produce a license, but I'm thinking they'll do a little more than stop you if you're already hunting.
That being said, I'm glad they are out their looking for poachers and reducing illegal hunting practices.

 

[rambone]

An interesting point would be if I were on my own property and I were approached by a Conservation Officer I would hope the first question would be "do you have a right to be here?" cause I would probably return the question....

I'm not sure about Indiana, but in Colorado a wildlife officer has the power to come on your property to regulate hunting activity, because even though the property may be yours, the game is not.

Not that I've ever heard of that actually happening. I'd suspect they'd wait for some kind of probable cause.

yes , conservation officers can enter your land anytime..

I just had a conversation with my cousin in Minnesota who was harassed on private property for around 30 minutes by a DNR officer during a hunt.

I was in shock, and cannot believe conservation officers are apparently immune to trespassing laws.

 

[Eddie]

Certain statutes

I just had a conversation with my cousin in Minnesota who was harassed on private property for around 30 minutes by a DNR officer during a hunt.

I was in shock, and cannot believe conservation officers are apparently immune to trespassing laws.

Certain statutes confer immunity from tresspass laws on public officials. County Surveyors have a similar immunity.

 

[jwglock]

Thanks for the posts everyone.

Do COs indeed have additional search powers?

IC 14-9-8-16
Powers and duties of conservation officers
Sec. 16. (a) A conservation officer of the division:
(1) has all necessary police powers to enforce the natural resources laws; and
(2) may, without warrant, arrest a person for a violation of those laws when committed in the officer's presence.
(b) A conservation officer shall do the following:
(1) Detect and prevent violations of natural resources laws.
(2) Enforce natural resources laws and rules.
(3) Perform other related duties that are imposed upon conservation officers by law.
(c) A conservation officer has the same power with respect to natural resources matters and the enforcement of the laws relating to natural resources laws as have law enforcement officers in their respective jurisdictions. A warrant of arrest or search warrant issued by proper authority may be executed by a conservation officer in any county.

 

[public servant]

I just had a conversation with my cousin in Minnesota who was harassed on private property for around 30 minutes by a DNR officer during a hunt.

Define harassed, please?

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm not sure about Indiana, but in Colorado a wildlife officer has the power to come on your property to regulate hunting activity, because even though the property may be yours, the game is not.

Not that I've ever heard of that actually happening. I'd suspect they'd wait for some kind of probable cause.

Yes that happens all the time.

 

[hookedonjeep]

Many moons ago, my Uncle David was out scouting for Elk in North-Central Montana. The season was open, he had his rifle, and a valid tag. While glassing the steep hillside across from his position, he saw a beautiful bull, and knew that he had to take the shot now, if ever. So, with his 7mm Mag, he dropped the bull on the hillside, climbed back up to his Jeep, and drove around to the other side to claim his righteous kill. When he arrived at the spot he dropped the animal at, a DNR officer approached him, and asked to see his tag. My uncle responded that he indeed did have a tag, and started digging through his pockets - without finding his tag. The DNR officer said that my uncle would have to help drag the "illegally harvested" animal up the hill to the DNR officer's truck. My Uncle simply said "ok", and the two of them proceeded to quarter it, and haul it up the hill. Once they got it all up the hill, my Uncle David tells the officer - "Oh, wait a minute...... here it is!"; and pulled the tag out from one of the pockets he had allegedly checked earlier!
Heck of a way to get some help!

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Thanks for the posts everyone.

Do COs indeed have additional search powers?

Yes, and I don't believe it matters if you have a hunting/fishing lic.
Indiana Code 14-22-39

IC 14-22-39-3
Searches of effects; entry onto property
Sec. 3. (a) As used in this section, "public or private property" does not include dwellings.
(b) The director and conservation officers may:
(1) search a boat, a conveyance, a vehicle, an automobile, a fish box, a fish basket, a game bag, a game coat, or other receptacle in which game may be carried; and
(2) enter into or upon private or public property for the purposes of subdivision (1) or for the purpose of patrolling or investigating;
if the director or conservation officer has good reason to believe that the director or conservation officer will secure evidence of a violation of this article or a law for the propagation or protection of fish, frogs, mussels, game, furbearing mammals, or birds.
As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.15.

 

[SavageEagle]

yes , conservation officers can enter your land anytime..

Certain statutes confer immunity from tresspass laws on public officials. County Surveyors have a similar immunity.

Yes, and I don't believe it matters if you have a hunting/fishing lic.
Indiana Code 14-22-39

How in God's name is this Constitutional? They cannot just come on my property and snoop around just for the hell of it.

(1) search a boat, a conveyance, a vehicle, an automobile, a fish box, a fish basket, a game bag, a game coat, or other receptacle in which game may be carried; and

(2) enter into or upon private or public property for the purposes of subdivision (1) or for the purpose of patrolling or investigating;
if the director or conservation officer has good reason to believe that the director or conservation officer will secure evidence of a violation of this article or a law for the propagation or protection of fish, frogs, mussels, game, furbearing mammals, or birds.

Especially the highlighted part. What I do on my own property is my business. I understand that game that wonders onto my land is not mine. That would be like saying any person that walks on my land is mine. So I get that part.

What I don't get is how some guy with a badge has the right to come on my property that I own and just start searching around through my stuff, my car, my home, my garage just because he THINKS I might be violating some law.

This is not right. I would rather die than let anyone have free reign over my own property.

 

[jwglock]

Yes, and I don't believe it matters if you have a hunting/fishing lic.
Indiana Code 14-22-39

There we go! Thanks Timjoebillybob.

Now, shall we challenge this in court????

I suggest each and every hunter/resident in IN. that values his/her constitutional rights contact their state representatives in an effort to change the Indiana code based upon the US 4th admendment!