Do you carry different "types" of guns?

[melensdad]

Do you carry different types of guns?

Is that a smart thing to do?

I've noticed that some folks here have several different types of guns that they carry. I find that potentially dangerous.

Let me explain my logic.

Let's say you have a Walther PPK, a compact 1911 pattern pistol and a Glock type pistol. Let's say you alternate between these 3 guns for carry.

The PPK uses a safety that works EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the 1911 safety. The Glock has no external safety.

The PPK has a long hard DA first shot trigger pull, light follow up shots. The 1911 has short light trigger pulls on all shots. The Glock has a long mushy trigger pull on all shots.

Now look at this scenario, which seems fairly likely. You are in a dark parking lot walking to your car, you are confronted. You pull your gun. You are under severe stress. You can't see well because of the relative darkness. Does the safety go up and away? Does it go down? Does the gun have a safety?

Here is my logic, after playing with guns for the past 20+ years, I've settled on 1 type of gun. For me (and you choose what is comfortable for you) the guns I use, shoot, collect, carry & practice with are 1911 pattern guns. All of them, no matter the size, capacity, or manufacturer work the SAME WAY as the next. The grip is the same, the trigger is basically the same, the safety is the same, the slide release is the same. I have big ones and small ones and tiny ones, but they are all the same.

I will admit to having a small DAO .380 pocket rocket, but its stuck in the safe. I also have a revolver but its not a carry gun.

So when I practice, I practice with the same things that I carry. My "muscle memory" has become natural movement. I sold off my non-1911 pattern pistols after I realize that I was probably putting myself in danger by trying to master so many different action types, and then expecting myself to have those mastered under an extreme stress situation.
​

Bear in mind that I chose to stick with the Colt 1911 pattern pistols, but I could have just as easily chosen, for the very same reason, any other type of gun. So I am NOT saying that the 1911 is the best, I'm just saying it is the ONE that I use, play with, collect, carry, practice, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[Lars]

I tend to agree. Having a single "Manual of arms" in a self defense handgun makes a lot of sense.

"In practice we'll do what we trained." A good quote from Clint Smith. The problem is, if you train with a Glock, 1911, and PPK, which training will you fall back to when something happens.

I've decided I'm going to carry H&K Pistols. Specifically Variant 1, which can be carried Hammer back, safety on for a short SA trigger, or can be carried Hammer down, with a long DA first shot.

I've not determined which way I'll carry yet. (Which means I won't start carrying it until I've practiced enough to be infinitely familiar with it's operation)

I actually got to purchase my HK because it's former owner is forced to carry a Glock while on duty, He was fumbling around with the controls on his HK at the range because the last 6 months he's been shooting the glock twice a week. He decided he can't be fumbling around for the proper controls on the street, and has sold off all of his NON-Glock pistols.

 

[melensdad]

I tend to agree. Having a single "Manual of arms" in a self defense handgun makes a lot of sense.
. . .
I actually got to purchase my HK because it's former owner is forced to carry a Glock while on duty, He was fumbling around with the controls on his HK at the range because the last 6 months he's been shooting the glock twice a week. He decided he can't be fumbling around for the proper controls on the street. . .

And that is EXACTLY what I am referring!

When you compound the stress induced problem by having multiple different guns that operate in different fashions, then I really think people are setting themselves up for near/certain disaster.

If we train with 'type x' and carry 'type x' then we will have the instinctive ability to use 'type x' pistol. If we train with type x, y, & z and we rotate carrying those guns, and they are each different, then I wonder if we will have any instinctive ability at all?

 

[rhino]

This is a very good idea to discuss.

On a related note, it also applies to people who compete with one type of gun, but carry something completely different (and maybe never fire the latter).

To address one specific, the "backward" safety on many double action pistols is certainly something you have to consider. One way (perhaps the best) to deal with it is to never use it. A double action pistol does not need a thumb safety in order to be carried safely (SIG Sauers among others don't even have them). The "proper" way to carry a double action pistol is with the safety "off." Then it's far less of an issue if you're more accustomed to the 1911 thumb safety.

 

[melensdad]

This is a very good idea to discuss.

On a related note, it also applies to people who compete with one type of gun, but carry something completely different (and maybe never fire the latter).

Absolutely.

To address one specific, the "backward" safety on many double action pistols is certainly something you have to consider. One way (perhaps the best) to deal with it is to never use it. A double action pistol does not need a thumb safety in order to be carried safely (SIG Sauers among others don't even have them). The "proper" way to carry a double action pistol is with the safety "off."

Well on this I will partially disagree with you. Some of the MODERN designs have firing pin/trigger/hammer interlocks that can be trusted, but many of the common carry pistols do not and the safety is a real safety. It may well depend on the AGE OF THE DESIGN rather than the age of the gun.

 

[4sarge]

Manual Safety, To De-Cock or Not Magazine disconnect or Not.

IMO Simplicity is the key, along with Practice, Proper Maintenance, Proper Mind Set and Situational Awareness. For most folks, who do not practice religiously, a wheel gun (revolver) or a pistol such as a Glock are easy to manipulate in a crisis situation. The KISS philosophy does work.

 

[kludge]

This is why there are no "safeties" on my carry guns. Point and squeeze.

I'm not going to knock the 1911 guys or anybody else for having a gun with a "safety", but yes you must train with the gun you carry.

I use the term "safety" in quotes because it just gives some people another excuse to sweep you with a loaded gun.

 

[melensdad]

This is why there are no "safeties" on my carry guns. Point and squeeze.

and

IMO Simplicity is the key, along with Practice, Proper Maintenance, Proper Mind Set and Situational Awareness. For most folks, who do not practice religiously, a wheel gun (revolver) or a pistol such as a Glock are easy to manipulate in a crisis situation. The KISS philosophy does work.

OK fine but the real topic at hand is actually using DIFFERENT types of guns not simply a gun with a safety or not.

For example a Smith J Frame revolver doesn't have a safety, neither does a Glock, nor does an AMT DAO 380 "Back Up". But all have VERY DIFFERENT trigger characteristics and it is my contention that while all are "point & squeeze" pistols, all are still different. Someone who practices with a Glock and hits point of aim will very probably pull a shot 2' to the right with double action revolver and 3' to the right with the AMT because the trigger pulls of these three guns are so radically different.

But I do agree that KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID is a great concept, and that is really what started this thread. I think that it might be more appropriate to suggest that it would be better to KEEP IT SIMPLE & SMART by using very similar guns if you are going to switch guns. Just because someone has a bunch of carry guns without safety levers is not relevant to me. What I suggest is that practice and carry should be the same or at very least, very very similar.



PS: 4sarge, did I see you on TBN? I used to post there but quit a while back because of Bird and some of his lunacy.

 

[Barry in IN]

I usually carry one "main" gun and a back up.
The "main gun" might be one of three types. They may seem different at first, but they also might have more in common than it first appears.
And that's the 1911, HiPower, and HK P7.
They are different...yet similar. Sights are similar or identical, and most important to me- the triggers are all about the same.

I've had people question having the P7 in the mix, since you have to squeeze the grip to cock it. They seem to think that is inviting disaster because I might forget to cock it. I don't see it that way at all, because when I shoot any handgun, I take a firm firing grip. And with the P7, that cocks it.
I squeeze the grip of the 1911 and HiPower, and it doesn't hurt a thing. With the P7, I sweep my thumb across the area where the thumb safety is on the others, and it doesn't hurt a thing.

So yes, there is a difference, but it doesn't really change how I handle them, and it gets me three different types of guns for different needs.
And it gets me sights and triggers that are basically the same on each. I find that very important.

The BUG is a Kahr. It is different in that it is even simpler to operate.

 

[Prometheus]

I've heard that school of thought and if it works for you, great.

I went down that road before and there is definately something to be said for it. However I'm also a collector and no way I'm limiting myself like that. I also like to change up carry guns for 'special occasions'.

If I was likely to use my weapon, I wouldn't do that, but lets face it the chances of any of us here actually pulling the trigger to defend ourselves is pretty slim.

As it stands my two fav's are a SA XD9 and a S&W 642. Neither one has a safety to worry about. When I do carry something else, like a 1911, I don't worry about it.

 

[4sarge]

and



OK fine but the real topic at hand is actually using DIFFERENT types of guns not simply a gun with a safety or not.

For example a Smith J Frame revolver doesn't have a safety, neither does a Glock, nor does an AMT DAO 380 "Back Up". But all have VERY DIFFERENT trigger characteristics and it is my contention that while all are "point & squeeze" pistols, all are still different. Someone who practices with a Glock and hits point of aim will very probably pull a shot 2' to the right with double action revolver and 3' to the right with the AMT because the trigger pulls of these three guns are so radically different.

But I do agree that KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID is a great concept, and that is really what started this thread. I think that it might be more appropriate to suggest that it would be better to KEEP IT SIMPLE & SMART by using very similar guns if you are going to switch guns. Just because someone has a bunch of carry guns without safety levers is not relevant to me. What I suggest is that practice and carry should be the same or at very least, very very similar.

PS: 4sarge, did I see you on TBN? I used to post there but quit a while back because of Bird and some of his lunacy.

I had typed a long carefully thought out response but lost it do to a laptop malfunction If we are talking about a marksmanship contest then I totally agree with you but in a me or you, life or death situation, I'm going to pump as many center mass shots into you as necessary to stop the threat. Then I will worry whether or not they were all in the X Ring I won't be that far away that 2 inches either way will really matter

TBN - Could Be - I thought that I had seen that red snow beast somewhere else before

AMT has a horrible trigger pull

and a big difference is that I open carried for over 30 years with thousands of hours of range time and uncounted number of shot rounds. I do not consider myself an Expert but am confident in my performance under fire but have practiced and trained for that situation to where it is an automatic response. I do not look at a gun as anything more than a tool. An important tool and it always helps to have the right tool for the job. Collecting is nice but it (should) only takes one to do the job but don't tell my wife that

Actually lining up the sights on another living breathing human being and pulling the trigger takes some inward thought; If you are a rational thinking human. When and if that time ever comes for you (I hope that it doesn't), it will seem to be in slow motion, many strange thoughts racing thru your mind and then the reality sets in and you must live with the consequences of your actions even if you are determined to be absolutely in the right. Believe me, it is not easy.

 

[melensdad]

I usually carry one "main" gun and a back up.
The "main gun" might be one of three types. They may seem different at first, but they also might have more in common than it first appears.
And that's the 1911, HiPower, and HK P7.

Well I would generally agree. The 1911 and the Hi Power have IDENTICAL controls, nearly identical trigger pulls, probably because the Hi Power was designed as a refined version of the 1911 by the same designer. My experience with the HK P7 is that you have to grip it the same way that you grip a 1911 because a firm grip cocks the P7 and a firm grip automatically disengages the grip safety on the 1911.

I've heard that school of thought and if it works for you, great.

I believe it is also the school of thought in most defensive gun training programs around the nation.

. . . I'm also a collector and no way I'm limiting myself like that.

So am I. I have dozens. But for my carry guns I stick with one type.

I also like to change up carry guns for 'special occasions'.

And does that make it more likely that you will, under a stress situation, find yourself fumbling with the weapon? That is exactly the experience described in Post #2 of this thread.

As it stands my two fav's are a SA XD9 and a S&W 642. Neither one has a safety to worry about. When I do carry something else, like a 1911, I don't worry about it.

Again the thread is not about if the gun has a safety, but if the guns are different. Trigger pulls, safeties, even grip angles come into play.

. . . and a big difference is that I open carried for over 30 years with thousands of hours of range time and uncounted number of shot rounds.

And that makes you far more experienced than 80+% of the people who carry guns. So perhaps your overall experience would negate many problems.

AMT has a horrible trigger pull

EXACTLY my point. That is a common gun. It has no safety. It is a aim & squeeze gun. Yet the trigger is so heavy that it alone will yield a "miss" even at short range because it is so easy to pull the tiny gun off target.

 

[Fenway]

Good topic.

I own one handgun and it is a Glock 19. I carry it and I practice / train with it.

 

[Thickburger]

it's all muscle memory. if you practice enough with the "different" guns your hands/mind will remember how it functions. now i do agree with KISS but if you practice enough then it should not be a problem.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

and



OK fine but the real topic at hand is actually using DIFFERENT types of guns not simply a gun with a safety or not.

For example a Smith J Frame revolver doesn't have a safety, neither does a Glock, nor does an AMT DAO 380 "Back Up". But all have VERY DIFFERENT trigger characteristics and it is my contention that while all are "point & squeeze" pistols, all are still different. Someone who practices with a Glock and hits point of aim will very probably pull a shot 2' to the right with double action revolver and 3' to the right with the AMT because the trigger pulls of these three guns are so radically different.


Well sir, even though this may seem off topic, I offer another angle. If I understand correctly, you are proposing that the difference in trigger pull is what will cause a shooter to be inaccurate when switching between guns. But, consider a Bianchi shooter who uses a 686, an IPSC shooter with a 1911, and a steel shooter with a Glock 34. These may in fact be the same person, just 3 different games they play. So does that mean that if you had a range day that consisted of practice for each style, you might only be accurate in 1 setting? It seems to me that a person who becomes proficient with any given firearm is not restricted to only being proficient with that 1 gun. If we set the 3 previous guns on a table, gave you 10 seconds to pick up each one and fire one shot, how would you do? And is that a reflection of dissimilar situations or your training regimen? No insult intended, just food for thought. And I do realize that you were speaking in the context of exceptionally high stress defensive scenarios. I don't think your argument is wrong, but I also don't think it's that cut-and-dry.

Josh

 

[melensdad]

I do realize that you were speaking in the context of exceptionally high stress defensive scenarios. I don't think your argument is wrong, but I also don't think it's that cut-and-dry.

Josh, I totally agree that it is not "cut & dry" but I also think your example may be over simplified.

When we look at some of the common guns, we have to look at many factors. You laid out a good example of full size guns. I laid out an example of some common guns that would be rotated for self defense. A little AMT DAO or similar gun has a very heavy trigger pull in conjunction with a tiny little grip that even a child will only be able to wrap 2 fingers around. The combination makes it more likely to pull a shot.

Most of us are not competition shooters who have a series of very finely tuned pistols. I was listening to The Shooting Bench the other day, they rattled off a bunch of statistics, most people who apply for carry permits are over the age of 55. Odds are those are not competitive shooters, odds are those are people who are looking to defend their life and only have 1 or 2 guns (again according to host of the show). If you only have 1 gun then its all a non-issue.

My question/hypothesis is for those people who regularly switch up gun types like they change shirts. For me, I have a dozen or so 1911 pattern guns that I will rotate around depending on my mood, but they are all identical in operation and configuration. I guess I go back to the 2nd post in this thread where it actually confirms my thoughts by someone who changed and had issues. Many others here probably have not given it much thought and very very very few of us ever have been faced with that 'high stress' situation.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I simply live by the philosophy, "Beware of the man with only one gun... he might know how to use it."

 

[bigkahunasix]

I carry either a 1911,a BHP or a S&W wheelgun, BUT, I have carried AND trained heavily with these in the USMC, law enforcement, and
competition for 30+ years, tens of thousands of hours and god knows how many rounds of ammo. (thank you Uncle Sam for footing most of my ammo bill.)
I recommend to my students- try several,pick one that works, and practice daily (dry drills daily and live fire at least weekly) until you can "draw it,hit with it,load it and clear a malfunction" instinctively. And I do not switch guns during a class as that sends the wrong message. Most people are not "gun people", they buy and want to learn to operate for defense, period. Firearms recreation somtimes comes later or not at all.

 

[Shay]

Good topic.

I own one handgun and it is a Glock 19. I carry it and I practice / train with it.

I carry a Glock 19. I own plenty of pistols but I only carry my Glock 19.

I see no reason to have a "carry gun du jour". It makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[kludge]

OK fine but the real topic at hand is actually using DIFFERENT types of guns not simply a gun with a safety or not.

OK in that case, yes.

90% of the time I carry a Kel Tec P11.
10% of the time I carry a Springfield XD-40

That might change if I find a better holster for my XD.

I have a couple other possibles, but I haven't found holsters I like that I can afford.

Currently looking for a holster for a 4" Service Six.