Do you carry OC / pepper spray?

[Sylvain]

First of all when I say "OC" im talking about Oleoresin Capsicum, not Open Carry.Just to make it clear for ATM, because im sure he will check this thread.

So do you carry OC spray as part of your EDC?
If you do, what brand, type and size of canister do you carry and where do you carry it on your person?

I have looked at a many different brands and models (who ALL claim to be the "hottest thing on the market" btw ).

Also have you ever been sprayed or sprayed someone (maybe yourself)?

I always wanted to try it on myself but I have not done it yet, for some reasons.
Im just curious to know the effects of the spray on me, not only to know what it would be for my attacker if I ever spray him/her, but also in case im attacked by someone with OC spray.
We all know that those are not "defense spray" only and that criminals use them as well.

 

[OneBadV8]

Yes I do and Yes I have been sprayed. I took a "Less than lethal" self defense class given by Blue Cell Protective Services and at the end they sprayed volunteers, so I volunteered.

Here is the AAR for the course - https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...tions_course_lovemywoods_range_8_13_11_a.html

I carry this - Triple-Action Leather Plus Pepper Spray 11 Gram Aerosol Includes Leather Holder King Ring 10% OC Plus Tear Gas UV Dye Black

 

[ATM]

I CC my OC.

 

[OneBadV8]

I CC my OC.

So... You CC your OC and OC your CCW?

That sound about right?


WHAT ABOUT THE BACON?!?!?!??!

 

[ATM]

WHAT ABOUT THE BACON?!?!?!??!

I prefer it crispy.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think learning the affects of it first hand are great for anyone wishing to use it....I don't use OC personally for protection because I learned how easily its affects are to overcome by a person with relatively little training.....the stuff SUCKS and I wouldn't do it out of choice, but it is tolerable enough to engage in hand to hand combat with it in your face with minimal training....and for that reason I choose not to carry or use it....it will hinder an attacker of course, but not enough for me (IMO) to hassle with it...I personally would be more comfortable engaging in hand to hand without the added hinderance.....that being said, to each their own and if you wish to carry it I definitely suggest trying it to understand its effects...however, some people can have rather adverse affects from it if they haven't had it done to them before..and so you should hook up with an EMT or someone to be on hand just in case

 

[Sylvain]

I CC my OC.

You CC it so as not to scare people while you OC a handgun?

 

[ATM]

That ...and of course, being targeted first







(...by moochers who just want a little shot to spice up their bland burrito or taco salad.)

 

[Sylvain]

I think learning the affects of it first hand are great for anyone wishing to use it....I don't use OC personally for protection because I learned how easily its affects are to overcome by a person with relatively little training.....the stuff SUCKS and I wouldn't do it out of choice, but it is tolerable enough to engage in hand to hand combat with it in your face with minimal training....and for that reason I choose not to carry or use it....it will hinder an attacker of course, but not enough for me (IMO) to hassle with it...I personally would be more comfortable engaging in hand to hand without the added hinderance.....that being said, to each their own and if you wish to carry it I definitely suggest trying it to understand its effects...however, some people can have rather adverse affects from it if they haven't had it done to them before..and so you should hook up with an EMT or someone to be on hand just in case

I agree, it's not a magic spray that will stop your attacker.
I have seen videos of police and military guys getting sprayed and fighting, handcuffing someone and doing a bunch of other tasks.
Sure it probably hurts really bad but if you are on top of someone you can still punch him to death and the spray wont stop you.
I think it's all about will power though, not so much about training.
If you are attacked by someone, get sprayed and your attacker is trying to kill you (with a knife or whatever), you will fight back just like if you didn't get sprayed.
In the other hand, if you attack someone, let's say a lady to take her purse, and you get sprayed, you will probably give up and run away because the pain is not worth what could be in that purse.
I think it's a good defensive option but you should always have other options (hand to hand, knife, baton, gun etc ...) in case your attacker doesn't give up after being sprayed.
Being a non-lethal option it also looks really good in court IMO.
If you are attacked by someone, you spray the guy and he's still coming at you then the use of lethal force like a handgun would look more reasonable.

 

[Paul Gomez]

If you carry a lethal force option, you need to carry a less-lethal option.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

If you carry a lethal force option, you need to carry a less-lethal option.

Do you have any thoughts on that statement or are you just stating?

 

[the1kidd03]

If you carry a lethal force option, you need to carry a less-lethal option.

care to elaborate on reasoning Paul, for all potential readers

I agree in the theory, but IMO if a threat is presented that warrants use of deadly force then there is not point to less than lethal components. Beyond that one should try to avoid confrontation by any means, if that fails then I believe in meeting force with force.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Huh? If you carry a gun, you should carry a less-lethal option. OC is one of the best LL options out there.

Gimme a few minutes and I'll get back here.

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

Huh? If you carry a gun, you should carry a less-lethal option. OC is one of the best LL options out there.

Right. You've said that already but, what is your reason for carrying a Less Lethal whenever you carry a gun?
EDIT:

Gimme a few minutes and I'll get back here.

Ok. I'm not trying to be an a$$ and hope I'm not coming off that way.

 

[NIFT]

I think learning the affects of it first hand are great for anyone wishing to use it....I don't use OC personally for protection because I learned how easily its affects are to overcome by a person with relatively little training.....the stuff SUCKS and I wouldn't do it out of choice, but it is tolerable enough to engage in hand to hand combat with it in your face with minimal training....and for that reason I choose not to carry or use it....it will hinder an attacker of course, but not enough for me (IMO) to hassle with it...I personally would be more comfortable engaging in hand to hand without the added hinderance.....that being said, to each their own and if you wish to carry it I definitely suggest trying it to understand its effects...however, some people can have rather adverse affects from it if they haven't had it done to them before..and so you should hook up with an EMT or someone to be on hand just in case

Agree!
The effects of OC spray are highly variable and should not be counted on to have the same effects as a Taser!

However.....it may/could/might work, especially in a condition yellow-to-orange situation that does not (yet) justify lethal force. Hose him good and skeedaddle! At the minimum, it will interupt his OODA loop and get you ahead of the reactionary curve.

My wife carries a fist-sized can of Mace Take Down Extreme (the prison riot formula!) in her left hand while walking from the car to work and back, walking from the car to the store, etc. The right hand is reserved for the gun, if, heaven forbid, it should ever be needed. She knows it will be like spraying a hornet's nest--you don't stick around to see whether it worked!

 

[Paul Gomez]

OK, I'm back.

-- Carrying a gun puts you in a unique situation where you have greater concerns, and fewer options, when it comes to dealing with contacts that do not warrant lethal force.

If a bum approaches you asking for money and you say 'Can't help you' and attempt to keep moving but he refuses to get the message and continues to follow you, what do you do? We all talk about deescalation but what does that really look like?

First, we have to understand the idea of a Use of Force Continuum. The only thing that justifies our use of Lethal Force is that we were in Reasonable Fear of Receiving Great Bodily Injury or Death from whomever we have opted to use force upon.

In Law Enforcement, the Use of Force Continuum looks something like this:

1. Officer Presence
2. Verbal [Generally Tiered--Ask, Tell, Order]
3. Soft Empty Hand [Wrist Locks, Arms Bars, Pressure Points]
4. Hard Empty Hand [Striking]
5. Baton
6. CS
7. Lethal Force

Depending on the agency, CS & Baton will flip flop. When the FBI began issuing OC, they placed it after Verbal and before Soft Empty Hands. Most agencies followed the FBIs lead. The x26 TASER is, generally, fitted into the same spot on the UoFC.

What this means is that using Pepper Spray is such a low level of force [much less than punching someone] that we have a very effective tool to help us regain control of a situation that is spiraling out of control without allowing it to devolve into a lethal force event.

Having tiered verbalizations to enable us to escalate language prior to using greater force is nice. It allows us to establish a progression that any reasonable person can comprehend leading to our use of force [be it lethal or less than lethal].

Having physical tools to assist in controlling the environment also help.

Being able to use a Less Lethal option and resolve a situation without having to resort to beating someone into the dirt or shooting them, generally, results in less heartache for the good guy.

Does this make sense, so far? I'll post some more detailed stuff in the next day or so.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Here's an article that I wrote several years ago giving some background on chemical agents in general and OC/Pepper Spray in particular.


There is an amazing amount of bad information concerning 'pepper spray' floating around the internet. This series of posts is intended to offer an easy source of information concerning OC sprays.

Oleoresin Capsicum – Definitions

Physiological Symptoms

How OC is Made/Manufactured

How Hot is Hot?

History of Defensive Sprays

Dispersion & Canister Types

OC as Use of Force

Exposure in Training

A Historical Overview of OC Training

First, we shall define our terms.

Oleoresin Capsicum, commonly called Pepper Spray, is the most commonly used defensive spray in this country. It has been in use by the US Postal Service since 1976, for use against animals, and has swept Law Enforcement agencies since the FBI began issuing it in 1990.

Oleoresin is defined as a naturally occurring mixture of a resin and an essential oil; obtained from certain plants.
Capsicum can be defined as (1) any of various tropical American pepper plants of the genus Capsicum, especially any of the numerous cultivated forms of the species C. annuum and C. frutescens & (2) The fruit of any of these plants, especially the dried pungent types used as a condiment and in medicine.OC is an oily resin containing the dried and ground seeds of various pepper plants. This oily paste is true oleoresion capsicum. It is where 'pepper sprays' derive their name, but it is not in a usable form at this stage.

To have a viable defensive spray, three components are required. First is a nice hot OC. This is followed by a carrier or emulsifing agent and, finally, a propellant. Without a carrier to dilute the OC and allow it to be atomized and without a propellant agent to distribute the mixture, regardless of how hot the OC is, it is useless.

What does OC do?

There are a range of physiological symptoms that commonly occur when someone is exposed to OC spray.
Generally the most common results are:
A- Burning sensation to skin
B- Eye capillaries swell –eyelids slam shut –‘Blepharospasm’
C- Constriction of throat lining
D-Shortness of breath, coughing, gasping for air

Should these effects be counted upon? Not in my opinion. In my experience, you can count on the eyelids of the sprayed person to shut. They may reopen them quickly and exhibit no other signs, but the eyes will generally close. If your expectations are nothing more than a momentary closing of the eyelids, then I think that OC can be a useful addition to your toolset. Might the effects be greater? Absolutely, but if you rely on the greater effects and receive only the fluttering of the eyelids, are you in a position to deal with that as well as if you merely expected the eye flutter?

'How Hot is Hot?' has to be the eternal question and subject of a surprising amount of bad information in regards to pepper spray.
There are several different methods in common use to discuss the 'hotness' or pungency of OC sprays.

SHU or Scoville Heat Units
SHUs are a measurement of heat, as perceived from the burn sensation when a product is placed on the tongue. SHUs are the measurements derived from the Scoville Organoleptic Test, which was a taste test devised by Scoville while working as a pharmacologist for Parke Davis in 1912. The SOT devised a measurement scale that ran from 0 for the Bell Pepper & Banana Pepper to over 200,000 for the various Habanero Peppers and up to 16 Million for Pure Capsaicin. The SOT has been replaced by a method known as High-Performance Liquid Chromatography [HPLC]. Knowing the SHUs of a given product provides us with one number in the equation. Which is hotter, a 2 Million SHU product or 5.3 Million SHU product?

Percentage of OC
The percentage of OC only provides one number in the equation that is used to determine the actual 'hotness' of a given product. For instance, knowing that 'Spice A' is 5% and 'Spice B' is 10% really gives us no usable information. Is 'Spice B' twice as hot as 'Spice A'?

Capsaicinoid Concentration
This is a determination of active components in Oleoresin Capsicum. Capsaicinoids are the group of compounds that cause the burning sensation. There are three main compounds that make up about 95% of the capsicinoids: Capsaicin, Dihydrocapsaicin and Nordihydrocapsaicin. The Capsaicinoid Concentration is the amoung of these compounds in a given solution. By measuring the capsaicinoids, an accurate level of pungency can be determined. 'Major Capsaicinoid Content' is the measurement that the EPA uses when approving OC products for use as animal repellants [such as BEAR]. Capsaicinoid Cencentration is reflected as a small percentage.

Scoville Content or Scoville Value
This figure is one that I have used for years when evaluating OC products, but until recently, it had no catchy name. I referred to obtaining this number as 'doing the math'. If you multiply the SHU number and the percentage you will have a number that is indicative of the pungency of each application of a given product [each release from the can, ie how hot the total product being expelled from the can is].

As was mentioned earlier, every canned OC product has three components in the can: OC, Carrier & Propellant. The actual quantity of OC in the can is relatively minor. The vast majority of space is occupied by carrier and propellant.

A 5% 2million SHU has a Scoville Content of 100,000 & 0.62% CC

A 10% 2million SHU product has a SC of 200,000 & 1.25% CC

A 2% 5.3million SHU product has a SC of 106,000 & 0.66% CC

In my opinion, the lowest acceptable Scoville Content rating for a defensive spray is 100,000.

Chemical sprays have a long history in US law enforcement and even longer history on the world's stage.

CN - Chloroacetophenone -'Mace', was developed in Germany in 1869 and first adopted by US law enforcement in 1965. It was first marketed by Smith & Wesson. It is a micro particulate solid and is classified as a lacrimator and irritant.

CS - Orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile, was invented in 1928 by American chemists, Ben Corson and Roger Stoughton. 10x as potent as CN and faster onset of effects. It is a micro-particulate solid and is classified as a lacrimator [tear producing], irritant and sternutator [A substance that irritates the nasal and respiratory passages and causes coughing, sneezing, lacrimation, and sometimes vomiting.].

CR- Dibenzoxazepine, was invented in 1962 in the UK by Higginbottom and Suchitzsky. It is the least well known of the chemical sprays and its development raises some interesting questions. CR is the parent compound of loxapine succinate [Loxitane], an antipsychotic medication. It is roughly 5 x as potent as CS and has a much higher lethal dosage. It is also very tenacious and can be reactivated by exposure to water as long as 48 hours after someone has been exposed to it. Like CN and CS, CR is a micro-particulate solid and is classified as an irritant.

OC- Oleoresin Capsicum has proven vastly more effective against a wider range of people than any of the earlier defensive sprays. However, it is not 100% effective and no such delusions should be allowed to persist. OC became commonly used in US law enforcement following a two year study conducted by the FBI from 1987 and 1989 and when the FBI began issuing an OC product to its agents in January of 1990.

Common patterns of dispersion include:

Stream: [Think Squirt Gun]
Maximizes range
More Resistant to Wind & Weather
Not readily inhaled
Harder to hit target
Requires greater degree of accuracy
Little likelihood of crosscontamination

Foam:
Good in confined spaces
Least likelihood of crosscontamination
May 'blowback' on user in windy conditions
May 'glob' onto clothing or skin, preventing effective atomization

Cone or Mist: [Think Lysol]
Less range than Stream
Less resistant to wind
Readily inhaled
Greater likelihood of cross contamination

Burst or Fog: [Think Wasp & Hornet Spray]
More resistant to wind than Mist
Readily inhaled
High volume of product put out in short duration
Causes the most cross contamination

There are many variations on these patterns and it seems like every company is just waiting for some new way to throw OC, but these should give you some idea of what's available.

My preference is a can of at least 2oz equipped with a high output top configured in such a way as to provide tactile reference as to can orientation. I am a very big fan of Burst units.

 

[the1kidd03]

Paul, EXCELLENT synopsis as usual. I'm coming to have high expectations for you at everything you're involved in. I wouldn't argue any of the points/facts you present. Although, IMO I feel that OC sprays can become more of a risk than a benefit.

By which I mean, without considerable training in proper OC deployment including knowing how it affects you, it shouldn't be a "recommended" item. I think if a random untrained person carried it and was presented with a scenario requiring it's use, then they are likely to get into contact with it themselves which would hinder their abilities to continue the fight or even flee for that matter. If someone wishes to use it for a protection option then great, it's better than nothing for sure but I HIGHLY recommend a training class for it before hand. I know my wife for example, as clumsy as she can be would be one who's likely to get as much in her face as the attacker's and I believe this would be true for anyone without proper OC training. That is why I spend the time with her to concentrate on learning hand to hand, knife, and pistol techniques (when warranted.) That is also why I think it is as important to stress appropriate training for OC as for any other form of self defense because it could easily harm the "good guy." But, excellent summary on OC and points as to when it could be warranted.

for Mr. Gomez yet again

 

[MrSmitty]

I'll be in the peoples republic of Khalifornia in a few weeks, I will have my P-11 but will be unable to carry ( it will be unloaded, and mag separate according to the stupid rules of the Khalifate) so I'm taking some pepper spray..and a few pocket knives

 

[Sylvain]

I'll be in the peoples republic of Khalifornia in a few weeks, I will have my P-11 but will be unable to carry ( it will be unloaded, and mag separate according to the stupid rules of the Khalifate) so I'm taking some pepper spray..and a few pocket knives

I think you can open carry only if your gun is unloaded.
And the police has the right to stop you to make sure that your gun is unloaded (both chamber and mag empty).
I have seen some people carrying with the slide locked to the rear and no mag in the gun, that way the police dont stop them and can see that it's unloaded.
Also it's faster to just insert a mag and release the slide to chamber a round.