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Does a fast draw and hit matter?
- Thread starter cedartop
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Yeesh... I need more practice
Most of us do. I wasn't really asking for people's times, but wanted opinions or at least to get people thinking about the importance(or not) of a fast draw and first hit. The times are only there as a reference or benchmark.
I think a good fast draw is important. However, I pray that if I am ever in a gun fight the gun is already in my hand when the fight starts. Seeing what you need to see regarding the front sight is key. Don't over do the sight picture, but use the sights.
Very good point Coach. I have been in that situation before, and it can stop the gunfight before it starts. As a regular Joe or Jane though I certainly wouldn't count on this being the case.
To the extent that LE and military differ from Joe CCW, this particular skill is one that Joe CCW needs to be better at. For better or worse, There is a double standard. Joe CCW can't just pre emptively whip it out when the mood strikes (condition orange) without risking criminal charges. Cops can.
Here's one counterpoint to ToddG's article--
Which is preferred-- a fast draw/shoot from a static position? Or a slightly slower draw/shoot while moving? (I think "fast draw/shoot while moving" is the answer here, but you get the point)
Which is more important-- shooting the bad guy or not getting shot? (again, "both" would be the best answer)
I realize that these concepts can indeed work together, but if you were given the opportunity to pick one over the other, which would it be? (rhetorical)
The trap that I think is easy to fall into is one where drawing speed from a static position becomes the benchmark above all others. If one guy can do it in 1.3 seconds and next guy in 1.5, we then assume that the 1.5 guy is the 'loser'. But that's not the reality of reactive fighting. In fact both of those times are likely 'losers' if they're trying to draw on an already-drawn gun.
Of course this is NOT the case in shooting competition, where speed is one major benchmark used for scoring.
I'll take a faster draw over a slower one every day of the week. Speed IS important. But I don't know that it's such an important element that I should devote lots of training/practice time to shaving off tenths of a second. Once a basic level of proficiency is reached I think there are other elements that should be worked on, like movement, use of cover/concealment, distancing, etc.
But the overall message of the article is a great one-- we don't get much time.
Which is preferred-- a fast draw/shoot from a static position? Or a slightly slower draw/shoot while moving? (I think "fast draw/shoot while moving" is the answer here, but you get the point)
Which is more important-- shooting the bad guy or not getting shot? (again, "both" would be the best answer)
I realize that these concepts can indeed work together, but if you were given the opportunity to pick one over the other, which would it be? (rhetorical)
The trap that I think is easy to fall into is one where drawing speed from a static position becomes the benchmark above all others. If one guy can do it in 1.3 seconds and next guy in 1.5, we then assume that the 1.5 guy is the 'loser'. But that's not the reality of reactive fighting. In fact both of those times are likely 'losers' if they're trying to draw on an already-drawn gun.
Of course this is NOT the case in shooting competition, where speed is one major benchmark used for scoring.
I'll take a faster draw over a slower one every day of the week. Speed IS important. But I don't know that it's such an important element that I should devote lots of training/practice time to shaving off tenths of a second. Once a basic level of proficiency is reached I think there are other elements that should be worked on, like movement, use of cover/concealment, distancing, etc.
But the overall message of the article is a great one-- we don't get much time.
If you'd take me up on my invite to come compete, you'd know that on more than half of the stages presented at a given match, you don't just stand n' draw at the beep. 
You have to draw while running to a position. Sometimes it's close, sometimes not.
The skill translates surprisingly well to other things. As my freestyle (2-hand) draw got faster, so did my strong hand only draw. That's pretty useful, ask the MO clerk in the video that's going around the last few days.
In the real world 360 2-way tactically critically dynamic range, you may or may not have cover or concealment to run to. (Fun fact: most interior walls aren't actually cover, only concealment)
You have to draw while running to a position. Sometimes it's close, sometimes not. The skill translates surprisingly well to other things. As my freestyle (2-hand) draw got faster, so did my strong hand only draw. That's pretty useful, ask the MO clerk in the video that's going around the last few days.
In the real world 360 2-way tactically critically dynamic range, you may or may not have cover or concealment to run to. (Fun fact: most interior walls aren't actually cover, only concealment)
As someone who knows a little about drawing and hitting quickly, I'll vote YES it is important. All the awareness in the world will not help if the fight lasts 3 seconds and it takes 3.5 seconds to get your gun out and hit who you are aiming at then the fight is OVER before you can even get your gun involved in it.
On the other hand if you can draw from concealment in less than 1.5 seconds (some of us less than 1) then you have time to get your gun in play and get multiple hits on target. If you can employ some "OODA disruption skills" then you can buy even more time. On the other hand if the BG uses some "OODA disruption skills" on you AND it takes you 3 seconds to get to your gun...then you are woefully behind the curve and survival will be more luck than anything else....
What makes you fast? Eliminating extraneous movement. Smooth is fast. Herky Jerky is slow.
What else makes you fast? Having a VERY well defined "line in the sand" that if it is crossed we do not dither, we act. There is a story about John Wesley Hardin, Jeff Milton and (IIRC ) George Scarborough in 1895 crossing the border over into Juarez Mexico one day for some entertainment. Milton was the chief of police of EL Paso and Scarborough was a US Marshal and both were serious gunmen of some repute. As the story goes they had gone to Juarez to gamble and have a good time when someone stepped up in front of them and began verbally abusing them and reached for his gun at arms reach. Before the guy could clear the holster Hardin had drawn and jammed his pistol into the guy's stomach. Milton later said it was the fastest thing he'd ever seen....
Not only was Hardin a fast hand with a gun, but he had a definite "go switch" and didn't hesitate...he also recognized the cues of impending assault and didn't wait to see what kind of gun was getting pulled on them before he acted. Milton and Scarborough were still at "orient and decide" ...Hardin was already at "Act".
On the other hand if you can draw from concealment in less than 1.5 seconds (some of us less than 1) then you have time to get your gun in play and get multiple hits on target. If you can employ some "OODA disruption skills" then you can buy even more time. On the other hand if the BG uses some "OODA disruption skills" on you AND it takes you 3 seconds to get to your gun...then you are woefully behind the curve and survival will be more luck than anything else....
What makes you fast? Eliminating extraneous movement. Smooth is fast. Herky Jerky is slow.
What else makes you fast? Having a VERY well defined "line in the sand" that if it is crossed we do not dither, we act. There is a story about John Wesley Hardin, Jeff Milton and (IIRC ) George Scarborough in 1895 crossing the border over into Juarez Mexico one day for some entertainment. Milton was the chief of police of EL Paso and Scarborough was a US Marshal and both were serious gunmen of some repute. As the story goes they had gone to Juarez to gamble and have a good time when someone stepped up in front of them and began verbally abusing them and reached for his gun at arms reach. Before the guy could clear the holster Hardin had drawn and jammed his pistol into the guy's stomach. Milton later said it was the fastest thing he'd ever seen....
Not only was Hardin a fast hand with a gun, but he had a definite "go switch" and didn't hesitate...he also recognized the cues of impending assault and didn't wait to see what kind of gun was getting pulled on them before he acted. Milton and Scarborough were still at "orient and decide" ...Hardin was already at "Act".
If you'd take me up on my invite to come compete, you'd know that on more than half of the stages presented at a given match, you don't just stand n' draw at the beep.
I wasn't trying to suggest that all stages were static in nature-- just that speed is a major metric used to score them.
And while I'd love to come see how you 'fast guys' do it, I can't say that I'd prioritize it above what I'm already doing. Unless you had cake, then I might come.
Like I said, it is an important skill, no doubt about it. And it's obvious you've worked really hard at squeezing out the most efficient and speedy draw you can (and continue to). But how much practice did it take you to go from a 4-second draw to a 2-second draw? Not much? Then how much practice did it take you to get sub-1 second? And it sounds like you've been working really hard to get that down to .7x.
Your video above obviously represents a lot of hard work and practice, but when was the last time you practiced not getting shot? Or having dialog with an aggressor? Or making a clean 9-1-1 call? Or rendering self-aid? Or the many other aspects of defense that aren't covered under "shooting"?
And don't take that as an indictment of any kind. As a competitor you are working toward a goal and it's making a difference in your performance. You want to get better and it looks like you are. My point is just that with different goals can come different priorities (and there's certainly some crossover). For me I'm not a competitor so shaving tenths of a second off my draw isn't something I'll put a lot of time into.
Good point and always an excellent reminder.
If my draw was ever 4 seconds, I'd trade my guns for a can of mace and a rape whistle. That's just beyond awful.
The entire point of this thread was to point out that what one thinks is "good enough" probably isn't.
We did have cookies at the last match. Chocolate chip. They were pretty awesome. No need for forks plates like with cake. We're all about efficiency in both shooting and consumption of chubby treats.
The entire point of this thread was to point out that what one thinks is "good enough" probably isn't.
We did have cookies at the last match. Chocolate chip. They were pretty awesome. No need for forks plates like with cake. We're all about efficiency in both shooting and consumption of chubby treats.
This is all an argument we wouldn't have to have if the "tactical" guys would include a little competition shooting in their routines. The same could be said for the strictly competition folks taking the occasional self defense class as opposed to thinking they can shoot themselves out of anything.
The question of whether a fast draw and hit matters depends entirely on the circumstances of your fight. The real answer is "maybe, maybe not". I think its worth putting some time in to because working the mechanics of the draw stroke, picking up the front site, and managing the trigger and sight picture during movement of the sight to the target have benefits that carry over in to many other things.
Does it matter in your gun fight? We can't know that. Should it be included in your training and practice? I think so.
Does it matter in your gun fight? We can't know that. Should it be included in your training and practice? I think so.
A good point. Hardin did not worry about legal ramifications ever. An advantage he has over us.
LOL no unlimited budget but sooner or later I want to make sure I can hit what I am after. I do great at simple target shooting but seldom does that scenario ever come up
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