Does anyone know how to make ammuntion?

[rimfire_crazed]

I would guess the loading presses have the most liability.

Nope. That's just a tool. Selling ammo you've loaded will incur the most liability. If the best loader in town cannot make it viable, it's almost impossible to do on a small scale.

 

[Chaz]

I concur with the previous posts of "Go for it!" It's Class Project not an immediate business venture. And if you come up with something good, out of the box, even better. Hopefully you and others can benefit.
I was told that a welding shop would not go over in my town because there wasn't one here already and that meant there wasn't a need. Thankfully, I did not listen to them. I did VERY well.
Check it out, go for the grade, research, learn and regardless of whether it can become a viable business or not you have benefited and learned. I wish you good luck!

 

[Water63]

To All,

In this semesters business class I need to present a business proposal for starting a new business here in Indiana.

My idea is to get into ammunition manufacturing. Do some standard calibers that will sell easily, but I also want to look into doing extremely uncommon calibers that could be marketed to specialized shooters, such as 8x50R to owners of WWI AustroHungarian rifles.

I am beginning to put together a real proposal for the class and will enter a competition to receive a substantial grant for a startup business.

Right now I have an idea and a target market, but I am lacking in knowledge about manufacturing. So I would like to communicate with those far more knowledgable than myself on this subject.

At worst you could help me get an "A" in a business class. At best I could start a new ammunition company that would make certain Hoosiers never run out of the good stuff.

Please let me know if you have any experience in this field as I could really use the help.

Thanks,

Doug

I would call Andrew at Profire he is a great guy and can help guide you through the hoops. If you win you may get your own business if not you learned why it is so hard to start a business from the ground up. I think this is a great project what is your major?

 

[JoshuaW]

Do you really want that grant? If so, chose something else. For one, getting selected for a gun related project just isnt going to happen. Two, if you were to get it, you would have no clue in hell what you are doing, which is dangerous. Know your limitations, if you havent been reloading for YEARS I wouldnt risk it. Remember, you would be manufacturing small explosives designed to go off within three feet of someones face. Would you buy ammo from someone with your level of experience?

If you want to do something gun related, look at standard retail or accessory manufacturing. Less liability, less experience needed.

 

[JRPLANE]

Go for it. Young man I hope you make it! Don't let anyone tell you different.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I will respond as best I can. It is late and I have been up for almost 24 hours so if I am a bit sloppy I apologize in advance.

I hate to rain on your party here...but with the statements you have made i dont think this is for you. If you have not already looked into prices of insurance and everything else then you dont know enough about it to even start. On top of that the business you are talking about DOES NOT have alot of people lining up to have it done. Of all the shooters out there i would say that MAYBE 1/2% shoot a rare ammunition rifle. And of those i would almost bet that 50-75% of them reload their own. Then take into account that they dont shoot those rifles but maybe 100 rounds a year. Add to that that they probly already have a supplier of some kind and the few you might actually get to switch to a inexperienced (in the professional ammunition making world) person with untested loads. Normally im one of the guys who says "go for it" but in this case i would just walk on and find something else

Chuddly,

The investigation into what I am getting into is what I am doing now. It will take monthes to fully investigate and the earliest I can even begin to hope to start would be the end of this year.

I do not know what the surplus market will bear, but I cannot believe that if an easy, affordable solution to shooting limitations were to come along then some owners would be more likely to shoot. They would know that they could always get more from a business built to cater to their needs.

In the end more investigation is needed on my part.

Make your own primers? Not sure people would lime up for someone who doesn't know how to load and started making their own primer formulation...

Menzzer,

People have a right and a duty to be concerned. This is where good marketing and quality control comes into play. Make the best product you can at the most affordable cost and inform the public. An informed consumer is a loyal consumer.

More investigation is needed on my part, which is what I am in the process of doing.

Don't let the nay-sayers get you down before you've really taken a close look at this. I don't know much about ammo manufacturing specifically, but I do know a little about manufacturing in general--and especially manufacturing engineering. Feel free to pm me if there's something you think I can help you with.

GodFearinGunTotin,

You can 100% count on a contact from me! Any information about manufacturing or running something is a good thing. Thank you for the offer.... You may regret it!

Profire is still in business, but he is not loading and selling ammunition, commercially, any longer. His insurance cost basically tripled, making it financially impossible to make a profit at it. He's still one of the most knowledgeable reloaders I personally know, but not turning out the rounds he used to.

Broom_jm,

I will be looking into Profire and attending one of their intro classes soon. I look forward to learning more.

I need more information to review.

[/SIZE]

You are going to play hell to get these people on the phone for the next few weeks - I'd wait until the first of February.

Businesses that will likely talk to you, I can dig for contact names on business cards this evening:

Quality Cartridge - brass
Captech International - Jamison Brass - brass manufacturing/ammunition assembly
Silver State Armory - brass manufacturing/ammunition assembly
PMX Industries, Cedar Rapids, IA facility - brass cups
Olin Brass - brass cups

Call this auction house, ask for a complete sale bill - and if you can still get to the closing bids, or if they will provide them - you'll have some idea of used equipment cost.

A-Square Ammunition Auction - Hoff Online Auctions | Auction HQ

If you dig around enough you may be able to locate the auction information from Bell, Dakota and the Jamison (alleged as I never saw the bill) auctions as well.

Insurance:

Gun Insurance Home, Welcome

While you have Jamision on the phone, I'd ask (there is probably someone on here who knows) if they would discuss the government supply process.

This can get as big as you want it, want to propose producing your own projectiles as well?

[/SIZE]

Fireball168,

Thank you for this! I will be reviewing this with great interest.

I need more information and this may well help with that.

Sounds like if your company would manufacture ready to load brass and projectiles to start with, then if things go well get into primers. I would guess the loading presses have the most liability.

Mike45,

I don't know. My father sells insurance as an independent agent and is looking into getting me quotes. This process has just begun and I need more information to proceed.

I concur with the previous posts of "Go for it!" It's Class Project not an immediate business venture. And if you come up with something good, out of the box, even better. Hopefully you and others can benefit.
I was told that a welding shop would not go over in my town because there wasn't one here already and that meant there wasn't a need. Thankfully, I did not listen to them. I did VERY well.
Check it out, go for the grade, research, learn and regardless of whether it can become a viable business or not you have benefited and learned. I wish you good luck!

Chaz,

Thank you for the support! I appreciate it. You hit the nail on the head. Right now this is ONLY a class project that will hopefully turn into something more.

I am glad to hear your welding business took off. Sometimes all that is needed to overcome adversity is a plan and some guts.

Do you really want that grant? If so, chose something else. For one, getting selected for a gun related project just isnt going to happen. Two, if you were to get it, you would have no clue in hell what you are doing, which is dangerous. Know your limitations, if you havent been reloading for YEARS I wouldnt risk it. Remember, you would be manufacturing small explosives designed to go off within three feet of someones face. Would you buy ammo from someone with your level of experience?

If you want to do something gun related, look at standard retail or accessory manufacturing. Less liability, less experience needed.

JoshuaW,

I don't know why ammunition production as a viable business (IF that it what it turns out to be) would not be selected. This is a business department, not a feelgood department.

You are 100% correct that I have no clue what I am doing. You are correct today, January 19th.

This is the exact reason I am asking questions and doing research.

Don't take this the wrong way! I appreciate your input. It is good to dream high but keep your feet firmly on the ground.

Water43,

I am getting two (2) degrees. Both are associates degrees at this time. The first is a degree in Business Administration with an HR certificate. The second is a Liberal Arts majoring in Philosophy.

---

I think my greatest weakness is that I have ZERO experience with manufacturing or production. This is freely admitted and understood.

I think my greatest strength is that I KNOW I have zero experience with manufacturing or production as this then forces me to seek the input, advice and understanding of those who know far more than I do on a subject.

What I appreciate from my business studies is that it helps to illuminate the path that lies before me. It can help me to predict the problems, pitfalls and opportunities that may be encountered.

What I appreciate from my philosophy studies is that it helps me to avoid common mistakes of illogical thinking. I can analyze the business plan both on the numbers side and on the logical component side.

There are many successful business men and women who have started up without any college. College is not needed for business. However, college can help understand concepts that will improve your odds of success if you follow them.

How many startup businesses perform a SWOT analysis? I will.
How many startup businesses understand the basics of employment law? I will.
How many startup businesses understand great quality control? I don't, BUT I know someone who does and will fully exploit his experience.
How many startup businesses understand the basics of OSHA regulations? I will.

On all of these things I am far from an expert, but I have great resources in my books and college professors. And before anyone wants to deride the "Ivory Towers of Academia" each professor at Ivy Tech's business department MUST have a minimum of ten (10) years of experience in the business world, so I can ask people who have been there and done it.

I also recognize another great resource: INGO! A community of people committed to helping one another of similar interests who have a tremendous diversity of backgrounds, methods of thinking, and abilities to problem solve.

In the end I may find that this business venture is entirely nonviable and cannot work for predictable and/or unforeseen issues.

I appreciate every ones comments on this exercise. Encouragement is great, but so are reality checks. Keep em coming.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Water63]

I hope this all works out for you. My daughter is a business major going for accounting. Projects like this are real eye openers you will find that the companies that have survived have done what you are doing. Also look at the marketing side so far what you are talking about is the nuts and bolts a good salesman can sell a bag of manure and make the customer think they are buying the best out there and be glad to pay for it. Just because you don't know how to do something does not mean that you can not have a very successful business with the right team member on your side you can succeed. Good Luck on your endeavor when you get the project finish please update us.

 

[drgnrobo]

Im really hoping this venture takes off ,to have a brick & mortar ammo manufacturer in my backyard would make my decade.I realize its a class project now but that is usually how well planned business ventures start

 

[Libertarian01]

I hope this all works out for you. My daughter is a business major going for accounting. Projects like this are real eye openers you will find that the companies that have survived have done what you are doing. Also look at the marketing side so far what you are talking about is the nuts and bolts a good salesman can sell a bag of manure and make the customer think they are buying the best out there and be glad to pay for it. Just because you don't know how to do something does not mean that you can not have a very successful business with the right team member on your side you can succeed. Good Luck on your endeavor when you get the project finish please update us.

Water63,

My very good friend and his wife both are CPA's and own their own business, which is booming. Your daughter is in a good field. Tell your daughter if she wants to go it on her own to consider down the road getting her MBA in Accounting. My friend said it taught him nothing, zero, nada that he couldn't already do - BUT it was actually impressive to clients and his income has increased substantially because of it.

The marketing side is going to be the MOST IMPORTANT component of the venture, because it doesn't matter what we make IF no one knows they can buy it.

I am currently thinking about manufacturing the bulk of production as standard calibers, 5.56x45mm, .45ACP, 9mm, 7.62x51mm NATO, and so on. My initial projection is 200,000 rounds per week, total for all calibers. Of that 75% will be these standard rounds and the remaining 25% will be the odd calibers.

The odd calibers will not be sold out every week, so a stock will remain. Nonetheless, over time as marketing works the odd calibers will begin to move and production will hopefully increase.

What I don't know is this: IF I could manufacture 150k of 5.56x45mm rounds per week at a reasonable price, THEN could I count on all of them being sold? This is the revenue stream I will need to look at.
If I split the "standard rounds" equally that would be 37,500 rounds of each (5.56, .45, 9mm, and 7.62Nato.) Could that be almost guaranteed to move? If so, it will supply the revenue stream that will support the unusual calibers for those owners to shoot with confidence knowing there will always be more.

The other part of my marketing will initially be to let people know this is NOT competition ammo, at least not initially. This is good, fun plinking ammo that, while accurate, isn't meant for match grade shooting. This is the stuff that a father and son can go out all day and burn a thousand rounds without burning a hole in the wallet. Later as experience and quality are improved I could slowly introduce match grade IF the need is there and the profitability can be done.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Water63]

One thing to think about you may not want to put out that it is just plinking ammo. With the bullets today most ammo will be more accurate than the average shooter can wring out so don't make it sound like it is a substandard load. I would look at terms like "accurate and affordable" or "not your average pilinking round" you must present it in a way that make people think they are getting more than what they are. If nothing else you will have fun with this project. It is great to be able to work your hobby into you school work. That can turn to your passion down the road. Always reach for the stars and never look back!!
My daughter is going for her MBA and hopes to graduate with her CPA as well. She goes to Purdue and they offer a extra year to get your CPA and MBA degree at this point that is her goal.

 

[debeerman]

I hope this all works out for you. My daughter is a business major going for accounting. Projects like this are real eye openers you will find that the companies that have survived have done what you are doing. Also look at the marketing side so far what you are talking about is the nuts and bolts a good salesman can sell a bag of manure and make the customer think they are buying the best out there and be glad to pay for it. Just because you don't know how to do something does not mean that you can not have a very successful business with the right team member on your side you can succeed. Good Luck on your endeavor when you get the project finish please update us.

Libertiarian01- it is a litle more complicated that this^^^^^ but the foundation is true good marketing will make a significant difference and a salesperson who meets what the customers trues needs/problems are willhave a happy customer. I own a marketing company and one of the biggest mistakes made by start ups and established small businesses is they do not factor in funds/expenses for marketing or they underestimate what they should spend. Marketing is not easy or free but everyone has an opinion I always say to my EE we get all of the pain and none of the fame. meaning if the campaigns are going poorly it is our fault if they go well it is because of the brilliant owner of the client company. My best clients know we are responsible for a portion of the success and that they have to deliver on the expectations build by our marketing plans. Training staff managing customer expectations finding the right niche, survey data, etc. it goes on and on. Just know it will take a little longer than you expect and if done right when you hit the tipping point your sales skyrocket.

 

[Libertarian01]

Libertiarian01- it is a litle more complicated that this^^^^^ but the foundation is true good marketing will make a significant difference and a salesperson who meets what the customers trues needs/problems are willhave a happy customer. I own a marketing company and one of the biggest mistakes made by start ups and established small businesses is they do not factor in funds/expenses for marketing or they underestimate what they should spend. Marketing is not easy or free but everyone has an opinion I always say to my EE we get all of the pain and none of the fame. meaning if the campaigns are going poorly it is our fault if they go well it is because of the brilliant owner of the client company. My best clients know we are responsible for a portion of the success and that they have to deliver on the expectations build by our marketing plans. Training staff managing customer expectations finding the right niche, survey data, etc. it goes on and on. Just know it will take a little longer than you expect and if done right when you hit the tipping point your sales skyrocket.

Debeerman,

Does this mean I can count on you in the future to give me some sort of quote for a marketing program when I get to that section of project? I would really appreciate making my presentation as thoroughly professional as possible. I shall leave no opportunity unexplored or unexploited!

I have taken a basic marketing class and understand the tremendous value of a constant and consistent marketing campaign. There is almost no one on the planet Earth that doesn't know what Coca Cola is, yet they still spend millions(billions?) of dollars advertising. Small companies need to understand that an uniformed person is a person and an informed person is a customer.
Regards,

Doug

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

A minor update. I just jumped through a hoop and thought I would share.

The "Zoning" part is researched. I spoke with Doug McMillan at the zoning board and he was really friendly and answered all of my questions.

As it sits right now he doesn't see any issues. I will need to be in a zoned IN-2 area (for Fort Wayne) OR I-2 for Allen County.

All I will need is to file a Certificate of Compliance. This will cost $50 and take one (1) to two (2) business days to process.

Regards,

Doug

 

[jbell_64]

In the words of my father (who owned and published several newspapers and various other publications) "You don't have to know how to do all the jobs in your business, you have to know how to hire and manage people who do."

 

[JoshuaW]

I hate to keep being a downer, and clearly you are already progressing, so I wish you well on your project. If you get selected, PLEASE take a step back and really decide if you can handle it. Being a good business person is great, and in some types of startups you can learn as you go. Ammo manufacturing is not going to be one of those. Take that reloading class, learn about some of the safety aspects. Look at some failures, some exploded guns, etc. We have all had some of those "Oh crap" moments while reloading, it is bad enough when it happens to yourself, but you would not want that happening to a customer.

Good luck, it's an interesting project, just please warn us before you unleash your cheap ammo upon the market.

 

[Libertarian01]

I hate to keep being a downer, and clearly you are already progressing, so I wish you well on your project. If you get selected, PLEASE take a step back and really decide if you can handle it. Being a good business person is great, and in some types of startups you can learn as you go. Ammo manufacturing is not going to be one of those. Take that reloading class, learn about some of the safety aspects. Look at some failures, some exploded guns, etc. We have all had some of those "Oh crap" moments while reloading, it is bad enough when it happens to yourself, but you would not want that happening to a customer.

Good luck, it's an interesting project, just please warn us before you unleash your cheap ammo upon the market.

Joshua,

I am already planning to take a reloading class from ProFire down in Indy. I have briefly spoken to Andrew and intend to grill him on some of the aspects of this business.

The key will be good, constant, and consistent quality control. My business professor thinks I have a great idea is looking forward to my business proposal.

From some of my other learning I have found I have a very high self efficacy. Some may call this arrogance, but I believe I can make an excellent sheep! If someone shows me how to do something I believe I can do it. I may be very ignorant of most things in the world right now but if I am shown how to do a thing - I can do a thing. I know this because other people have done it which means it can be done.

My biggest concern will be determining the cost of business. The big boys are already of a size and volume that they can handle the costs, whereas me starting out may not be able to make an affordable product for folks. That is what this exercise will determine.

In this exercise part of the concern was whether or not I could produce in Fort Wayne or Allen County due to zoning rules. I have now determined, mostly, that this should not be an issue. Of course, it isn't done unless I actually start and put the papers in, but for now on my proposal this obstacle is not an issue.

Regards,

Doug

 

[chuddly]

sorry to say it but from reading your post i wouldn't OWN a round you made let alone BUY it and i sure wouldn't fire it. You know nothing about the business you are talking about getting into and from what i can tell you know nothing about business in general. You simply have taken a class on business and think you have all the tools and knowledge to go out and do it. Just because your professor says it sounds great doesn't mean anything. If im going to be real honest that would make me even less likely to do it because if he "knows business" so well why isn't he out running one and making millions? I have seen it many many times and they all seem to fail in short order.

Person X - "I want to have my own company"
Me - "oh yeah, What kind of company? What would you make or do?"
Person X - "I want to (insert any random idea)"
Me - "have you ever done that before? (because i know them and know they have not) Or do you have any experience with it?"
Person X - "No but i think i can learn it and i want to be my own boss so i have more freedom"

Trust me coming from a person who has/had their own company. If you dont already do it as a hobby and have a VERY GOOD knowledge of it now you will not make it. And being your own boss only means that you will be working ALOT of hours and not getting paid a single cent for it so you better already love the job and be willing to do it for free....because you will be.

 

[Libertarian01]

To Chuddly,

Every professor that teaches at Ivy Tech in the Business Department has to have a minimum of 10 years of experience in the real world working in the private sector.

Each has a variety of backgrounds they come from and a variety of reasons to teach. That is the best thing about Ivy Tech business. They do NOT live in the ivory towers of academia but come to the school with a knowledge of how things work in the REAL world. This is unlike many other colleges. I understand your ignorance of this reality could lead you to believe that they do not understand the business world. This would put you in error of the truth.

As to their reasons for teaching now instead of working, you have to ask them personally.

Do you think the CEO of the company that manufactured the car you drive understands how to design them? Really? What about the refrigerator that keeps your food from spoiling? Do you think the owner of your refrigerator company designs refrigerators? Hmmm....?

Remington, a company that manufactures firearms and ammunition announced Robert L Nardelli as their new CEO back in Jan of 2012. Mr. Nardelli worked at Freedom Group. Before this Mr. Nardelli's experience was from Cerberus Capital Management, an investment firm (no firearms / ammo experience here). After this he was in charge of Chrysler Motors (no firearms / ammo experience here), then, goodness, CEO of Home Depot (yet again, no firearms / ammo experience). Which of these prestigious firms gave him the knowledge and comprehension of firearms and ammunition manufacturing?

Link: Remington Announces Robert L. Nardelli as Chief Executive Officer

If you believe that you are limited only to the experience and knowledge you currently possess and cannot move forward or learn something new then it is good to know your limitations.

As I have said from the very beginning with continued research and information gathered I may learn that this business concept is not viable. Of course I will need information on all fixed and variable costs to determine such, along with government regulations.

This is why I am beginning to do monthes and monthes of research before even attempting such a venture. Many small businesses are started by people who only have an idea and no experience in that field. There are two (2) basic types of entrepreneurs; the first IS someone with a technical skill that they parley into a business, like a mechanic who starts her own shop. The second is someone without the experience but has an idea and hires/contracts the technical people to see that the idea bears fruit. I obviously fall into the second category.

I simply hope to share the information I gather along the way to illuminate the opportunities and pitfalls that someone else may experience. I hope to do so with real facts, data and information. The goal of which is to gain help from those here who do have more experience than I along with sharing this experience with them for their benefit.

It is my hope that we can all gain something positive from this endeavor.

Regards,

Doug