Does the United States have a right to torture suspected terrorist?

[E5RANGER375]

Perhaps then you'll also agree with the following statments which use the same logic:

Men's rights come from God. If you are a woman, your rights come from men. And they should be few.

Catholics' rights come from God. If you are a Protestant, your rights come from Catholics. And they should be few.

White people's rights come from God. If you are black, your rights come from white people. And they should be few.

The Aryan Race's rights come from God. If you are a Jew, your rights come from the Aryan Race. And they should be few.



I would say that 99% of the atrocities perptrated by men and governments of the last two millenia are the result of this type of logic.

Well thats why i believe in my GUN!!!! repeat after me .... MY GUN IS MY SALVATION!!! I will attend the CHURCH OF FIREARMS REGULARLY ..... I WILL MAKE OFFERINGS TO MY GUN OF HIGH QUALITY AMUNITION, AND NOT FACTORY SECONDS. IF SOMEONE WISHES TO HARM ME MY GUN WILL SMITE THEM, IF SOMEONE SEEKS TO DESTROY MY CHURCH, MY GUN WILL SMITE THEM. get the point?

 

[ihateiraq]

Perhaps then you'll also agree with the following statments which use the same logic:

Men's rights come from God. If you are a woman, your rights come from men. And they should be few.

Catholics' rights come from God. If you are a Protestant, your rights come from Catholics. And they should be few.

White people's rights come from God. If you are black, your rights come from white people. And they should be few.

The Aryan Race's rights come from God. If you are a Jew, your rights come from the Aryan Race. And they should be few.



I would say that 99% of the atrocities perptrated by men and governments of the last two millenia are the result of this type of logic.

its quite a leap of logic to go from people with whom we are actively engaged in a war, and women, blacks, and jews. i feel as a member of the military, i dont have a right to gain every scrap of information from a suspected terrorist in an effort to save AMERICAN lives. i have an obligation to do such. even if it hurts your feelings. i think theres a saying about people sleeping peacefully in their beds at night that seems quite fitting here.

 

[kludge]

It's not a leap at all.

Catholics waged war on Protestants. Nazis waged war on Jews. War was waged to bring blacks from Africa into slavery. Women were denied right becuase they were the property of their husband. All were tortured in many respect to achieve the desired results.

The real logical leap here is that military soldiers torturing suspected terrorists means that I or other will sleep peacefully "knowing" I'm "safe."

Actually in view of the Patriot Act it's quite the opposite feeling.

Not much hurts my feelings. Your words certainly don't.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I watched Hurt Locker the other night with my GF and kids (one whom is a Marine enlistee). I was an EOD officer so it kind of touched home to me.

In my world there would have been at least 8 more dead hajjis, 2 dead donkeys, 15 dead goats, and most importantly 2 less dead American soldiers. Guess it's good for hajji I'm not in the game anymore.

some will never undersatnd until you have been in a foreign country doing your job, and EVERYONE around you wants to kill you just because your American. you have to be Alert X10 or you will die. Im not bragging by any means, and i know some other on here have been there, whether it be the sandbox or vietnam, or korea, or fighting the Nazis, and I SALUTE ALL OF YOU MY BROTHERS IN ARMS! you can be giving food to women and children and the next minute your taking mortar fire because those same people you were helping are now calling in coordinates of your position. or maybe they pick up an AK or strap on a bomb and try to kill you or your friends? im sorry but war is ugly and IT IS REAL PEOPLE!!! Stop getting sucked in by the media, and being comfortable in your homes and taking for granted youve been safe so long, when there are people who if had the chance would come kill you as you sit just because you carry the title American. And dont be mistaken, they are here among us too, im sure. They are waiting for that right time. As hajji gets more desperate to cause casualties in hius own country they will bring it here, and NO amout of government can save you from a crazed suicide bomber. when it starts happening here on our soil regularly like it does in israel and other nations lets see if you sing the same tune, you keep singing, while i get my guns and go hajji hunting again!

and the guy who was talking about the Oklahoma City bombings first responder not having a "lets kill hajji" attitude. whats your point? why should they? hajji didnt blow up your building, a so called american did, that was mentally insain.

 

[SSGSAD]

It is not about the kill haj attitude...

It is about declaring yourself an enemy of my Country. There is treaties and regulations in place on how to handle the extraction of information of Military Detainees... Much like there are laws and regulations on how to deal with Civilian Detainees... Military Detainees have no rights. Just like Military Convicts have no rights. I will use whatever method is needed to defend my Country. If you have a problem with reality then do not become an enemy of mine...

If you want to be treated kinder and gentler stay out of the yard with the big dogs in it.

AMEN, to that, I couldn't have said it better, I will be your BEST friend, or your WORST enemy, YOUR choice... see I do believe in the right to choose.....

 

[ihateiraq]

It's not a leap at all.

Catholics waged war on Protestants. Nazis waged war on Jews. War was waged to bring blacks from Africa into slavery. Women were denied right becuase they were the property of their husband. All were tortured in many respect to achieve the desired results.

The real logical leap here is that military soldiers torturing suspected terrorists means that I or other will sleep peacefully "knowing" I'm "safe."

Actually in view of the Patriot Act it's quite the opposite feeling.

Not much hurts my feelings. Your words certainly don't.

some of your history is flawed there, but ill leave it alone. maybe your sleep will be restless, but at least youll be alive to toss and turn and ponder the actions of others taken on your behalf.

 

[jeremy]

I have no problem being that bad man that allows some of you to sleep better at night. There is nothing wrong with being a Wolf...

Just allow me and mine to do what needs done to keep our Oaths...

 

[Fletch]

I have no problem being that bad man that allows some of you to sleep better at night. There is nothing wrong with being a Wolf...

There is nothing immoral about immorality? Seriously? That's your argument?

Just allow me and mine to do what needs done to keep our Oaths...

Do you encounter a lot of American civilians in the Iraqi/Afghani desert, attempting to physically restrain you?

 

[E5RANGER375]

I have no problem being that bad man that allows some of you to sleep better at night. There is nothing wrong with being a Wolf...

Just allow me and mine to do what needs done to keep our Oaths...

AMEN BROTHER!!! AMEN


thats why some are True soldiers and others, well they arent. and thats fine, but if your a soldier you have to do WHATEVER is neccessary. sometimes bad people die because they earned it

 

[jeremy]

There is nothing immoral about immorality? Seriously? That's your argument?

Do you encounter a lot of American civilians in the Iraqi/Afghani desert, attempting to physically restrain you?

No that is not my argument. I will say that I have no problem doing whatever needs done here to come home.

The Military operates under a different set of rules, laws and treatises during combat operations. I am fairly well schooled in what I am and am not allowed to do to someone under the Rules and Regulations that govern the Soldier. I have even had to endure some of the techniques that you have deemed torture. You are the one that is crossing the lines of fact and fiction.

Actually yes I have encountered US Citizens fighting against us. Dirty little secret the Media does not like to talk of.

American Civilians attempting to restrain me though... No because if you are in an Active Combat Zone there are three categories of people Our Forces, Civilians, and Their Forces. If you are attempting to do me and mine harm in an Active Combat Zone then you just re-categorized you status in life. You just traded protected status of the Civilian for that of the Enemy, and wrath is about to descend down upon thee...

 

[Fletch]

The Military operates under a different set of rules, laws and treatises during combat operations. I am fairly well schooled in what I am and am not allowed to do to someone under the Rules and Regulations that govern the Soldier.

And I've stated that rules and laws hold no interest for me in this discussion. I'm interested in what's moral and immoral, because Law is no substitute for Morality. There are things I refuse to do, which are perfectly legal, but which are immoral. I understand that you may have no such compunction, and that morality may be something you consider a luxury or frivolity.

I have even had to endure some of the techniques that you have deemed torture. You are the one that is crossing the lines of fact and fiction.

I honestly don't see how. I haven't made any declarative statements with regard to the nature of operations in foreign lands, or the nature of combat, or the nature of your job. I am making statements with regard to morality and rights.

It is true that I have basically stated that waterboarding is torture, but just because you endured it doesn't mean that it isn't. More to the point, your position seems to be that torture should be permissible as well, since it may fall under the category of "what you need to get the job done". So I really don't understand why you'd even quibble over whether waterboarding is or is not torture, given that you seem to want torture to be an option anyway.

If, on the other hand, I'm mistaken and you don't think torture should be an option (leaving the question of waterboarding aside for the moment), I'd be curious as to why not.

Actually yes I have encountered US Citizens fighting against us. Dirty little secret the Media does not like to talk of.

Fair enough, I figured there was at least a small chance of it, given that lunatic Rachel Corrie and her ilk.

 

[E5RANGER375]

sorry man but their is no morality in war, incase you havent noticed. its kill or be killed. and i would gladly kill all of them before they can kill one more american. i'd have no problem turning the whole sand box into glass. wouldnt lose 1 night of sleep, thed have their virgins and id have my sleep number bed and my "experienced" wife

 

[Fletch]

sorry man but their is no morality in war, incase you havent noticed. its kill or be killed.

Are you saying that every soldier is evil and immoral?

 

[E5RANGER375]

maybe in your eyes. go pray about it and let me know what you come up with

 

[Fletch]

maybe in your eyes. go pray about it and let me know what you come up with

I'm not the one claiming that morality ceases to exist in wartime.

 

[dross]

Every human is born with all the same rights as every other human. These are a human's natural rights, and what they consist of is up to debate, but basically they consist of being able to do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't initiate force against another.

Our Declaration of Independence recognizes those rights and names some of them. Our Constitution sets up a procedure manual for the implementation of a society WITHIN the U.S. that recognizes and honors those rights. None of that is to say that an entirely different style of government could be established that was different from our Constitution and yet still implemented man's natural rights.

With those premises, I conclude that illegal combatants can be treatly differently than enemy soldiers who can be treated differently than legal aliens who can be treated differently than citizens, and still respect natural rights.

We don't have to extend every provision of our Constitution in order not to violate a non-citizen's rights. By it's very nature, we cannot extend all the same procedural protections to POWs that we can to our citizens who break the law.

Also, when we extend the provisions of the Geneva Conventions to those who do not sign or even follow them, we are weakening the Conventions, not honoring them.

 

[Fletch]

Every human is born with all the same rights as every other human. These are a human's natural rights, and what they consist of is up to debate, but basically they consist of being able to do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't initiate force against another.

Our Declaration of Independence recognizes those rights and names some of them. Our Constitution sets up a procedure manual for the implementation of a society WITHIN the U.S. that recognizes and honors those rights. None of that is to say that an entirely different style of government could be established that was different from our Constitution and yet still implemented man's natural rights.

With those premises, I conclude that illegal combatants can be treatly differently than enemy soldiers who can be treated differently than legal aliens who can be treated differently than citizens, and still respect natural rights.

We don't have to extend every provision of our Constitution in order not to violate a non-citizen's rights. By it's very nature, we cannot extend all the same procedural protections to POWs that we can to our citizens who break the law.

Also, when we extend the provisions of the Geneva Conventions to those who do not sign or even follow them, we are weakening the Conventions, not honoring them.

I can respect this argument. Repped.

 

[jeremy]

Are you saying that every soldier is evil and immoral?

No what we are trying to say is what Dross said a lot more eloquently than we have been...

Morality is a luxury in combat if you desire to survive... Some understand this, usually because they have seen the sharp end of the stick...

War should be so horrible, so severe, so disgusting that Diplomats are more afraid to use the Military. However, reality is that the society wants to civilize war to their standards of what is right and wrong. Making it easier for the populace to agree to wage wars. because it allows the politicians to distract the masses to their own agenda...

 

[Fletch]

War should be so horrible, so severe, so disgusting that Diplomats are more afraid to use the Military. However, reality is that the society wants to civilize war to their standards of what is right and wrong. Making it easier for the populace to agree to wage wars. because it allows the politicians to distract the masses to their own agenda...

I can respect this as well.

 

[kludge]

some of your history is flawed there, but ill leave it alone. maybe your sleep will be restless, but at least youll be alive to toss and turn and ponder the actions of others taken on your behalf.

I'd actually like to know what part of my history is flawed. Please elaborate.

It's quite narcissistic of you to claim that you are doing it on my behalf.

Whatever, if it helps you sleep at night, I guess.