Dog Breeders (German Shepherd) - QUESTION

[Dobber]

I'm hoping for a little help here. My wife and I are ready to add another (second) dog to the family and decided on a German Shepherd. The characteristics of the breed and the trainability ultimately were the decision factors for us. We approached a breeder in MI earlier this year and selected a litter but ultimately had to push our purchase due to some complications with my wife's pregnancy. We contacted the breeder this week after watching her website for a few weeks about a litter coming up mid-August. She accepted, gave us Pick Female, and took the balance of the half-down deposit since this litter was more valuable than the litter we originally left a deposit on. I'm 100% OK with everything that has happened thus far and I really think this lady is on the up and up. I have that icky feeling in my belly though, and I'm wondering what any of you who HAVE EXPERIENCE with dog breeding or specifically german shepherd genetics, think about this.

Tonight I got a call from the breeder saying that one of the females she keeps for her own was pregnant by one of her studs. She said she'd had them together for months with the intention of breeding the female again but hadn't seen any action and didn't think the female would/could be pregnant but HAD noticed her growing. This weekend she was petting the female and felt a puppy kick. Low and behold, this female is pregnant by one of her primary studs and is due in the next few weeks. She recommended based on the temperament of the puppies these two have produced in the past that we switch to this litter, which will birth about 5 weeks sooner than the other.

The pedigrees of the female and the male are not quite as impressive as the litter we had chosen but they are not mutts by any means. I think my anxiety really rests upon:
1. The breeder knows this particular stud is the father.
2. The breeder didn't know until today/yesterday that this litter existed.
3. The breeder isn't overcharging for a lower caliber pedigree by keeping the cost of the puppy the same as the other litter.
4. This late game change just doesn't feel right.

Obviously we all know to trust our gut feelings...the wrench in the mix here is my lovely wife who has a GREAT feeling about this change and wants to proceed without question. What are your thoughts/feelings?

-Dobber

 

[mbills2223]

I'll just leave these here:

http://m.germanshepherdrescueindy.com/

Our Mission

 

[miguel]

I don't know about dogs, but when you go to a car dealer to buy Car A, don't let them talk you into Car B.

 

[MCgrease08]

There are a lot of factors at play here so I will give my initial thoughts. I am not a breeder myself, but my family used to raise Brittanys for show and field trials so I do have some background.

First think about whether pedigree is really that important to you. With GSDs there is a huge premium placed on lineage and medical history. If you are just looking for a family pet that really isn't that important.

Secondly, I'd want to know how many litters have come from these pairings. You could run into problems if she is using the same females too often. Find out how many litters and how often.

Are you looking for a potential protection dog? If so, temperament is key. I would take someone with a training backround with you when you pick your pup. You want to find one that is playful and not too easily distracted. You will learn a lot about them by how they react on their backs. Find one that doesn't have trouble submitting to you during play.

A level 1 (entry level) dog will require some serious training and not every dog is suited for it. Here is a good example of a high level trainer working with a young dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed7YQU8bhUU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

There are a few good local trainers but it's not cheap.

Think about your goals for the dog. If they don't match what the breeder is offering than you may need to stick to the original plan our even walk away. Your gut reaction is probably the right one. Don't shell out big money if you are uncomfortable with the deal.

*edit - Check the link a couple of posts up. That's a good local GSD rescue org.

 

[Dobber]

I'll just leave these here:

http://m.germanshepherdrescueindy.com/

Our Mission

mbills I really appreciate this suggestion. Our first dog is a black lab/golden mix that we rescued and he is absolutely a member of the family that we wouldn't let go. That said he was and still is the result of someone elses' problems. We have all learned to live with each other but there is certainly a lack of trust on both sides. Our distrust earned by him, and his distrust of us guaranteed by his previous owners and NEVER reinforced by us. As you're interested in rescue animals I'm sure you know that most of a dog's demeanor are the result of genetics and the environment during the first 12 weeks of life. This new dog will serve a specific purpose in our home and it is crucial that we mold her personality to serve that purpose. I don't take lightly the concept of getting a purebred puppy over a rescued dog and I do truly appreciate your input.

-Dobber

 

[comanche]

As a former Shepherd breeder you really need to go with your instincts. I am assuming it will just be a pet?
Most dog breeding is based on different factors. Ours went to police, military and pets. i.e. they weren't show dogs that have a 'range' in size. Our dogs were on the bigger end of the scale to off scale but were beautiful dogs. One female was a red shepherd and was my favorite. She was a show dog.
Shepherds are one owner/family dogs. Family as in they will become part of the family and will be devoted to your family. One owner as in one person in the family will ultimately be the dogs master.
For a family dog pedigree doesn't mean much to me. I would try to buy a purebred that won't be registered and give a lot less for it if the breeder would be willing. I also would ask that they NOT be taken to the vet but rather give you two weeks to take the animal to the vet and if something is wrong be able to return it. It's expensive to go with a litter to the vet and almost stupid when you know the buyer is going to take the dog in again for another visit...just my opinion and saves more money.
our dogs all had X-rays to show no major signs of hip dysplasia that most big dogs are more likely to develop. Still no guarantee the pups won't get it.
Look at the mother and father...your going to get a clone. The only difference is the temperament based on how you raise it. I have seen from the same litter, one adult that were very good sweet dogs and one that the vet said NEVER bring him back. Base on how you raise it and the tone of your voice can create totally different dogs. They are VERY intelligent.
Watch their eyes when you talk to them and how they try to understand..really cool.
good luck.

 

[remauto1187]

I would stick with your "first" choice. The breeder is most likely trying to push you out of the litter that you paid for to sell to someone else at a higher price. This happened to me with onr of my GSD's. The lady)in Illinois) had 2 females and 1 male in the litter and I was first in line with the deposit and picked the male. Mysteriously 3 weeks before the pup would have been ready to be picked up the mother supposedly stepped on it and broke the pups ribs which punctured a lung and the pup supposedly died. I said that I would pick up one of the females instead then and when I showed up there was only one female left to "choose from".
But in the end I am quite happy with karlie. She will be 5 this Sept.

I would like to give you and anyone else considering a GSD a heads up. While I do love them to death and have had 4 of them (still have 2 that are alive) I managed to get a 4yo Belgian Malinois just this last Sunday. He was trained in german and Im telling you, that breed is much faster than any GSD that I have seen, bites harder, plays 250% of the time even at 4yrs old and are known to be more easily trainable compared to GSD's and are even more territorial with their home and yard than a GSD. This dog is a freaking slingshot! Throwing a ball at 30yds or so, the dog catches the ball BEFORE it hits the ground most of the time. That is how fast they are. When he launches, he actually removes grass from the dirt and leaves bare spots! They will wear a FAMILY out playing EVERY day...dont ask me how i know this!

I would have never believed any of it...until I seen it for myself..starting last sunday.

 

[SkullDaddy.45]

Always trust your instincts***, I've had many shepherds, great dogs, I've had terrific luck with Tatum kennels, she is in my opinion ,one of the best breeders in the country.

 

[jerryv]

I love GSDs, and have one now .. she just turned 10 ..

Like other large breeds, GSDs can have hip and joint problems. My last one ended up with bad hips. Find a breeder who has had both parents tested by the OFA .. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. They use xrays and examination to rate a dog in terms of the likelihood of dysplasia and other such problems. Only accept a dog whose parents were both rated either 'good' or 'excellent' by the OFA. This was true of my dog, and at age 10 she has absolutely no hip or joint problems, and still runs like crazy and is happy as a puppy. Nothing is sadder than to see an otherwise wonderful animal suffering from pain in the later stages of life.

Do some research on the OFA and find a breeder who uses them ..

I bought mine from Christiane Rudolf, near Cinncinnati .. she's raising Alpacas now, but I think still does some GSD breeding.

Tanglewood Farm (Ohio)

Take your time to find the right dog .. hope the info helps.

 

[dhnorris]

I have two,one is 14 and one at 1 &1/2 you mentioned a female and a new baby. good choice in protector you'll have a child with a friend for as long as your pup lives. My wife is semi-jealous of the dogs because I am alpha not her. If you trust the breeder I would follow her recommendations.

 

[92ThoStro]

Rescue/adopt one.

Otherwise find a reputable breeder. Breeders who keep and own both studs and dams are generally not reputable. They are picking based on availability and location versus what will produce the best offspring. Reputable breeders will generaly own one, and have the other either;

Brought over, or driven to

or

Semen shipped for implantation

Here is a good chart as well.

http://www.boxermap.com/reputablebreeder.html


Since you mentioned "studs" and I am assuming she also has multiple females. It leads me to believe she just owns a bunch of dogs that she breeds for profit.

To go along with "reputable" I noticed another forum user here selling an expensive dog saying he got it from a breeder but can't keep it. Thought it was funny he was asking so much and claiming it was from a great breeder. But no reputable breeder would allow the dog to be handed to another owner like that because they changed their mind.

I will sell you this dog, but if you change your mind it comes STRAIGHT back to me for a refund. If you want a pet, it will not have breeding rights, and comes with limited registration and a spay and neuter contract. Reputable breeders don't just sell their dogs to anybody and " a sale is a sale " and what you do after you leave is your own business. It's all about the dogs, not making a buck.

 

[Atac]

We always have had Goldens (7 of them over the last 20 years) and our family's favorites have always been because of temperament and not looks, lineage, or best characteristics of the breed.

With that said the fact the mother is the breeders personal pet it seems you have a good start on a great family dog. Also if she gives you the pick of the litter (we always would visit two to three times and spend at least an hour each time to figure out which one we wanted - always take the most calm easy going one if you want a great family pet), you should be able to find a great dog.

I always have felt that people stress too much of trying to get a "show dog" and don't spend enough time picking out the one that will make a great house dog - which is what we all really want.

 

[Dobber]

Great comments here and I really appreciate the feedback. This breeder is very reputable and I have followed up on several references, one of them a large LEO organization. She owns and trades studs frequently to diversify genetics and I've seen some 7 or so females listed in different matings. She has mentioned two other breeders that she works with frequently in Texas and North Carolina. I really think she is very passionate about these dogs and I'm confident that we'll end up with a quality purpose driven dog. I just was out off by the scenario where she didnt know this female was pregnant and that she could be sure the male is the father. Since there haven't been much comment on THAT aspect of the situation I feel better. Thanks again!

 

[92ThoStro]

Great comments here and I really appreciate the feedback. This breeder is very reputable and I have followed up on several references, one of them a large LEO organization. She owns and trades studs frequently to diversify genetics and I've seen some 7 or so females listed in different matings. She has mentioned two other breeders that she works with frequently in Texas and North Carolina. I really think she is very passionate about these dogs and I'm confident that we'll end up with a quality purpose driven dog. I just was out off by the scenario where she didnt know this female was pregnant and that she could be sure the male is the father. Since there haven't been much comment on THAT aspect of the situation I feel better. Thanks again!

As far as her personal pet goes, if she was intending to breed her because of the great results in the past, and it didn't take, but then somehow she missed it, and it did take, that doesn't really matter IMHO.

As long as she is reputable in all the other areas, you're good to go.

So she is breeding working dogs? That would make more sense. Show dogs, you don't get pick of the litter because there are two tiers.