EDC.. Your choice and expectations

[Mattroth54]

​I’ll try to actually answer your questions:


1. Most of us have gone through several different makes and models to come to a conclusion. I’ve heard people mention a couple hundred rounds to feel confident about reliability, what's your take on that?

Depends on the gun. My G23 has a long term track record. A few hundred rounds would convince me it didn’t have a manufacture defect. With all the hoopla around the p365, I ran it about 1000 before I felt good.

2. I’m curious how many have gauged performance with a timer shooting at paper to make your final decision VS it just feels right. I do shoot them before purchase.

Not necessarily with a timer. I hadn’t considered that but probably should.

3. Also what kind of performance you expect from yourself before you are comfortable enough to drop it in a holster and head out?

I expect to be familiar enough with the weapon to operate, change mags, etc., without fumbling or thinking.

 

[bwframe]

G19 because 9mm is a staple everywhere as is glock parts, mags, holsters, sights etc. I don't have the mindset of what's really awesome right now. My mindset is what gun has a great track record over a long period of time and if SHTF, then how abundant are parts and mags for it? And is it in a common caliber that everyone has? The 19 isn't the most ergonomic but it's a fighting tool. I don't buy into the whole "it doesn't fit my hand" or "it doesn't feel right"....

This.

Llittle tiny girls can shoot G19's well. Surely I can step up to learn shoot the gun most likely to be found or given if I don't have mine. Same goes for me handing you one; most likely a G19. We also have mags that swap, if needed.

 

[HCALREF]

Keltec 380. Very small and light, can put in pants pocket. I have fired several boxes of ammo and it has never failed to function perfect. However, being so small and light, it has a lot of recoil and you need to shoot it a lot to be reasonably accurate.

 

[cedartop]

Your question number 2 is a good one. Unfortunately the probably 90% answer to that is going to be no.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Your question number 2 is a good one.

I wager that most of us enjoy a good number 2...

But to the OP: For ME - I started carrying before I "should" have. I started carrying a handgun before I had any formal training. I started carrying before I had even determined what'd make a good carry gun (Beretta 9000s - HAH!). I started carrying before I had a GOOD holster (vs. merely barely adequate). I started carrying before I had a GOOD gun belt - I was still in the "why should I pay $50+ for a belt when this one from Sears works just fine" ignorant camp.

Ignorance WAS bliss.

Then I started learning more. I started paying attention to those folks who knew what they were talking about (and who had the bonafieds to go along with it).

However, I was still in "collecting" mode. But by this time I had settled on a Kahr CW-40 as my carry gun - though still in a crappy holster and still with a crappy belt. Still no formal training.

Then I invested in an M&P 9c. Then a GOOD holster. Then a GOOD belt. More magazines. Mag carrier/s. AND then I finally invested in good formal handgun training from a reputable source.

I settled on that M&P as my carry pistol because I could shoot it well enough. It was comfortable. Decent aftermarket support. Decent customer support. I learned to shoot that gun OK.

Then I purchased a Shield and traded that 9c for a 9fs. Made sure the Shield was going to feed, fire, and extract reliably. Bought a GOOD holster. And I've been carrying that as the main thing I carry. Been several years as #1 in the rotation.

For me - this choice came down to size/weight and reliability. For my desires in a handgun, the Venn diagram came together with a single-stack striker-fired 9mm as what it is I wanted. So that's what I have.

#2 - I do not have a shot timer. Nor can I practice one at the ranges that I frequent.

#3 - I feel mostly comfortable being downtown Indy while unarmed with a firearm. If I didn't feel I could safely go someplace without being armed - I'd not go to that place armed or not. That said, I have invested in training (though always need more). I feel comfortable with my understanding of Indiana firearms law. I feel comfortable with my level of experience, via said training, PLUS my understanding of the laws, in carrying a firearm for self-defense in Indiana

 

[warren5421]

I started caring about 65 years ago. Started with a Remington-Rand marked as government prop. Have carried a 1911 in one form or another the whole time. I cared that Remington-Rand till 1967 when Uncle issued me another Remington-Rand that I carried and used till 1975. In 1975 Uncle discharged me and took his gun back. I went to a Colt 1911 in .45ACP, I have carried one form or another in .45ACP of the Colt 1911 up to 2014. In 2014 got a STI 2011 in 10mm. I don't have a number of rounds before I carry. I shoot the gun till I fell it can be carried. Have never tried any other guns for EDC.

 

[88E30M50]

I’ve tried using a timer to see what I shoot best but have had mixed results. There are times when I’ll take a couple of pistols out and one will give me slightly better shot times. I’ll get excited and think that I found ‘the one’. Then, a while later, I’ll repeat the test and find out that I’m now shooting a different pistol a tad faster.

The timer I’m using is a phone app, so maybe that plays into the results I’ve had. The most consistent method for me is to take a couple of guns out and see what feels the best for me. It’s not as scientific as the timer, but I do think it’s what works best for me right now.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

In my law enforcement career (now 20+ years in the past) I carried the .38 Special, then the .38 Special +P+, then the 9MM subsonic in issue sidearms. In a number of scenarios of which I had personal knowledge I learned that none of them was worth a pisshole in the snow as a manstopper.

I resolved at that time to carry nothing but big bores. Firearm selection comes first, attire to accommodate it comes second. If you're more worried about what you're wearing rather than what you're packing your priorities are mixed up.

Before my retirement, owing to a certain degree of peril resulting from my superiors' rage at my activities as a member of the NRA Board of Directors it became necessary for me to go heavily armed. I chose a Colt SAA .45 backed by a 1911, which I considered a classy and historic combination.

When I retired I began carrying a brace of Cimarron Thunderer single actions in .45 Colt with 3.5" bbls and birdshead grips. They are super carry guns. However after some years my aging eyesight could no longer pick up the little dime-sized sights. In broad daylight at cowboy matches I was ok but not in dimmer light.

I switched to a pair of my N Frames, a Model 29 and a Model 1950 M&P .45 Auto Rim. I did ok with those for awhile until my aging back, knees and ankles (too many years of walls, fences, fire escapes and foot pursuits) rebelled at the weight.

I went to a 1911.

But I just rid myself of cataracts and now have two brand-spanking new store-bought eyes that have me seeing like Superman again.

It might be time to go back to those Cimarrons. There's just something about sporting a pair of classic thumb-busters that makes me happier than a hog in slop.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The timer I’m using is a phone app, so maybe that plays into the results I’ve had.

Phone apps suck.

And you can't really compare by taking different guns to the same range session.

Shoot/dry fire one exclusively for a few weeks to a month. Test each week with live fire. Repeat with the next for the same time period, using the same testing. Compare cold performance, because that's much more relevant in a self defense situation.

When I compared sights, I waited a week between each range trip to compare "cold" results. I used the same lane, same target, same lighting, etc. The *only* thing different was the sights. So any differences could only be attributed to the sights.

 

[Ggreen]

Timer will judge user skill with that drill more than equipment, especially comparing stock to stock similar type pistols. I wouldn't consider a timer valuable in selection of a carry pistol. More for tracking your skillset as you improve with a drill or your draw from concealment. Reliability, concealability, capacity, and comfort with the model. There is a somewhat new mantra making the rounds in carry training community, that focuses less on fundamentals and more on stress situation shooting. They still say you need a fundamental course but not to focus on it over and over every year. a timer is basically useless if your training that way as there aren't really benchmarks for shooting offhand only on one knee while behind a barrier. The justification for this type of training comes from studying video of justifiable shootings, where most of the people defending themselves couldn't square up and shoot from the fundamentally best position. Taking this into consideration, ambi controls would be more important than a timer, or knowing how to make your pistol work with your offhand.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Timer will judge user skill with that drill more than equipment, especially comparing stock to stock similar type pistols. I wouldn't consider a timer valuable in selection of a carry pistol.

User skill is a constant through the testing. I personally found the timer to be rather enlightening. If a difference of 0.3-ish seconds to first shot is particularly relevant for a carry gun or not is debatable. If .15-ish differences in split times is particular relevant is very debatable. However knowing that what 'feels good' vs what actually shows up on targets and timers is useful info. If you elect to take a less capable gun due to concealment requirements, etc. I understand that. I still carry my LCR only when I jog. But I know my limits with it, know what distances I can realistically expect to be able to place a given shot under a given time pressure is, etc.

a timer is basically useless if your training that way as there aren't really benchmarks for shooting offhand only on one knee while behind a barrier.

I'm not shooting for benchmarks. I'm comparing me vs me, and my timer still works when I'm behind cover, on a knee, in the dark, etc. When comparing sights, I did timed drills with multiple colored backgrounds, in various lighting conditions, etc. The sights that were the fastest in bright day light with a white target were very fast...in that setup. They were the slowest in low light with a black background. I'm not just using pure speed to make a consideration, pure speed rarely matters in gun fights. But without a timer I'm guessing and "feels" what's best. With a timer, I actually know and can then weight what's more important. In this case, consistent performance over a wide variety of backgrounds and lighting.

Also, if my fundamentals suck then non-standard shooting positions aren't going to make them better.

 

[88E30M50]

I really need to invest in a decent timer. Makes no sense to put serious money into firearms and ammo, then measure results with a free app on an old phone.

 

[Ggreen]

User skill is a constant through the testing. I personally found the timer to be rather enlightening. If a difference of 0.3-ish seconds to first shot is particularly relevant for a carry gun or not is debatable. If .15-ish differences in split times is particular relevant is very debatable. However knowing that what 'feels good' vs what actually shows up on targets and timers is useful info. If you elect to take a less capable gun due to concealment requirements, etc. I understand that. I still carry my LCR only when I jog. But I know my limits with it, know what distances I can realistically expect to be able to place a given shot under a given time pressure is, etc.



I'm not shooting for benchmarks. I'm comparing me vs me, and my timer still works when I'm behind cover, on a knee, in the dark, etc. When comparing sights, I did timed drills with multiple colored backgrounds, in various lighting conditions, etc. The sights that were the fastest in bright day light with a white target were very fast...in that setup. They were the slowest in low light with a black background. I'm not just using pure speed to make a consideration, pure speed rarely matters in gun fights. But without a timer I'm guessing and "feels" what's best. With a timer, I actually know and can then weight what's more important. In this case, consistent performance over a wide variety of backgrounds and lighting.

Also, if my fundamentals suck then non-standard shooting positions aren't going to make them better.

I agree mostly, I just don't agree that running a timer on a bunch of guns is a valid deciding point before purchase. The pure investment in high quality holsters to draw from would be staggering. My carry holsters are almost 80 bucks and a shell is 30 or 40. Now if you have the gear, multiple pistols, and are deciding between them sure, why not you've already spent the money. Renting a bunch and timing yourself from a simulated draw just wont yield consistent results. Draw speed will vary based on the training you've done and the muscle memory/hand eye coordination you've earned. I've had some conversations with a few USPSA masters and strong A's that say they shoot a class or even two below if they go from say shooting master with a cz then shooting a comp with a glock, because of wrist hold. So trying to benchmark yourself on your draw is a matter of training with that pistol, whether from concealment or open carry. To get fast the hardware matters much less than the software you're programing your brain and muscles with as you train. So I don't see a timer as being very important when choosing what to train with. I see a lot of value in timers running drills and seeing progress or finding bad habits, but not on initial selection.

I don't think the situational shooting training says to erase the fundamentals as much as it says to learn them and move forward into advanced and worst case scenario training. Fundamentals aren't going to help shooting off hand prone kind of thing. Of course a true student of the gun will never graduate and all training (almost) is good training.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Fundamentals aren't going to help shooting off hand prone kind of thing.

I think we might have a different understanding of what "fundamentals" are. Proper grip, trigger manipulation, sight alignment, etc. are fundamentals.

Now if you have the gear, multiple pistols, and are deciding between them sure, why not you've already spent the money

That's pretty much where I am. My choices are Glock or Sig for a main pistol. I have a butt ton of holsters, magazines, maintenance parts, duplicate copies of the same gun, etc. There's no reason for me to test a Beretta or H&K because I'm not going to buy one. Not that they aren't fine pistols. I'm just not starting over with logistics.

For a BUG, it's the Shield or the LCR, and for the same reasons. I'm not opposed to, say, a XD-s and honestly I might shoot it better than the Shield. But I'm not starting over, I'd rather texture the Shield's grip and swap out the sights then start over.

Where I did find a big value was, as mentioned, testing sights on the same pistol. If I had a sight pusher for my Shield, I'd be doing the same thing with it right now.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

A handgun has way less power than a rifle, so I want a good caliber. I also have large hands, so I want a full size gun. For 30 years that had meant one thing, a 1911. Nothing fits my hand like a 1911. As a result, I'm a better shot with it.

If I want to step up to a modern gun with increased capacity, and a light rail, I go with my Vickers edition Glock 17. The feel of the Vickers edition Glocks is different too. I don't much care for most regular Glocks, and have stayed away from them for years, but I like this one. Different material, or different treatment anyway. My hands may be large, but my fingers short, so I couldn't go with the.45 ACP 21. That's ok, the 45 v 9mm debate isn't anything to worry about with modern defensive ammo anyhow. I'm not saddled with ball ammo like the military is. Those short fingers are still, well, large, so I had to undercut the trigger guard to get the stupid finger grooves to line up right. Thankfully, I have youtube and a Dremel tool. Wow, 20 minutes of careful work makes a difference. The Glock wears a TLR1 at all times, and night sights.

The Glock 17 is my carry gun almost every day. The S&W 1911 is a fine gun, but has no light rail, or night sights. (yet) It has become a "dress gun". If I want to look nice, and have my shirt tucked in, I have to open carry. Those times call for the bling of the stainless 1911, not the plastic fantastic.

I don't worry about printing. Oh sure I don't want the gun to stick out too bad, but most people really don't pay attention to what the heck is going on around them. I just want it to blend in for the most part. If I can go about my day without being hassled by people staring at me, I'm happy. The only time I really concerned about very good concealment, is if I need to go in some place with a stupid sign I don't agree with. A good holster, and proper dress can fix that most times.

I carry 2 spare mags with any gun I carry, both for reload, and stoppage reasons. I always have a hand held flashlight, and a pocket knife. Always use a good gunbelt.

 

[Ggreen]

Vickers Glocks are rtf2 frames. Same material, different grip pattern, and also available on non Vickers models. Only other differences are sights and the bag of goodies, base plates, extended controls. Great Glocks tho. Undercut is still a good upgrade as well as removing the finger grooves. The pattern is good enough to not warrant stippling.

 

[88E30M50]

I will say that over the last couple of years, I’ve been moving away from carrying guns I love to carrying guns I shoot best. The 1911s and even many of my CZs are fantastic shooters, but carry is now mostly a polymer framed, striker fired pistol. The big three for carry over the last year has been the P10C, G30 and G23. The new G27 will be wrung out more when I’m able to carry strong side again.

 

[Karl Fairburne]

Gen 4 Glock 26 here. I like how it fits my hand. And, I'm confident it will go bang when I need it to. And by the way, I carry it all day, every day. I **** you not. I feed it hollow points.

 

[ART338WM]

I applied for and received a IN HG carry permit within 4-6 months after I moved here from IL. But I didn't own a HG suitable for CC. I first bought a SA XD HC SC but it was so heavy I found myself not carrying it.

Then while taking my two boys fishing right at sun up I then had two incidents occur that made me realize I needed a good CC specific HG.
My criteria was:
#1-100% absolutely reliable
#2-Light enough I could carry it in my pocket and weight and size would never limit my ability or willingness to carry it.
#3-As good of ergonomics as a small HG could have, good trigger a must.
#4-9mm minimum caliber and capacity at or above 7 rounds.

After looking at and handling many, many small semi-auto's I settled on a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm. That was 12 years ago and I'm on my second recoil spring and many
thousands of rounds later I am still satisfied beyond measure.
First range trip I bought 100 rounds each of Remington, WW, Federal, Fiocchi, Herters, CCI Blazer, Magtech PPU, just about every ammo my local Cabela's sold in boxes
of 50 IIRC about 750 or 800 rounds mixed of FMJ in 115, 124 and a fey 147 grain. Also bought some Speer gold dot, and WW Ranger and Hornady defense loads.

I didn't clean the Shield but I did lube it. It ran well with no malfunctions. I can not be happier with it and I carry it everywhere with me. I can not recommend the S&W
M&P Shield strongly enough.
It met and exceeded all my expectations in a small subcompact, 100% reliable good capacity easy to shoot very easy to conceal HG.

 

[doddg]

I applied for and received a IN HG carry permit within 4-6 months after I moved here from IL. But I didn't own a HG suitable for CC. I first bought a SA XD HC SC but it was so heavy I found myself not carrying it.
Then while taking my two boys fishing right at sun up I then had two incidents occur that made me realize I needed a good CC specific HG.
My criteria was:
#1-100% absolutely reliable
#2-Light enough I could carry it in my pocket and weight and size would never limit my ability or willingness to carry it.
#3-As good of ergonomics as a small HG could have, good trigger a must.
#4-9mm minimum caliber and capacity at or above 7 rounds.
After looking at and handling many, many small semi-auto's I settled on a S&W M&P Shield in 9mm. That was 12 years ago and I'm on my second recoil spring and many
thousands of rounds later I am still satisfied beyond measure.
First range trip I bought 100 rounds each of Remington, WW, Federal, Fiocchi, Herters, CCI Blazer, Magtech PPU, just about every ammo my local Cabela's sold in boxes
of 50 IIRC about 750 or 800 rounds mixed of FMJ in 115, 124 and a fey 147 grain. Also bought some Speer gold dot, and WW Ranger and Hornady defense loads.
I didn't clean the Shield but I did lube it. It ran well with no malfunctions. I can not be happier with it and I carry it everywhere with me. I can not recommend the S&W
M&P Shield strongly enough.
It met and exceeded all my expectations in a small subcompact, 100% reliable good capacity easy to shoot very easy to conceal HG.

1. Last May of 2017 I started a hunt for a CC, and after renting/buying/selling many: I ended up with the Shield 9mm and loved it also, and like you: never an issue.
2. After shooting a friend's Sig 365 though, with its 12 rounds and pinky extension and accuracy, I knew I would buy one and the Shield would have to go.
3. It cost $200+ more (comparing my used Shield to a new 365), so don't shoot one if you are on a budget!