emergency plumbing input: new water heater- need to replace tomorrow.

[Cameramonkey]

My mom's water heater started leaking around the blowoff valve. Its just a valve to fix, but she wants to go ahead and replace it. Its a 10+ year old unit, and she is starting to see corrosion around various parts. She has VERY hard well water, and my gut is the anode is done for. So due to the age and rather than nickel and diming her on part after part she wants to replace it.

She WANTS an electric* tankless heater. She lives alone so she probably pays more to keep the tank running than to what she actually USES every year. My concern is due to the hard water, is she going to ruin that in short order or are we best to stick with a tank system and flush it periodically?

So what say you professionals? Tankless or no?

*She has a large propane tank for heat, but due to where the water heater is its not practical for venting as its on an inside wall without a straight line to duct it, or it would have to go up through a roof opening... She's not sure she wants the hassle and expense to install.

 

[churchmouse]

My mom's water heater started leaking around the blowoff valve. Its just a valve to fix, but she wants to go ahead and replace it. Its a 10+ year old unit, and she is starting to see corrosion around various parts. She has VERY hard well water, and my gut is the anode is done for. So due to the age and rather than nickel and diming her on part after part she wants to replace it.

She WANTS an electric* tankless heater. She lives alone so she probably pays more to keep the tank running than to what she actually USES every year. My concern is due to the hard water, is she going to ruin that in short order or are we best to stick with a tank system and flush it periodically?

So what say you professionals? Tankless or no?

*She has a large propane tank for heat, but due to where the water heater is its not practical for venting as its on an inside wall without a straight line to duct it, or it would have to go up through a roof opening... She's not sure she wants the hassle and expense to install.

The electric tankless on demand whole house units have very high demand. Check available power.
Also, ultra hard water will ruin them if not serviced regularly and some kind of water treatment is in place.
Just replace the existing unit.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

The electric tankless on demand whole house units have very high demand. Check available power.
Also, ultra hard water will ruin them if not serviced regularly and some kind of water treatment is in place.
Just replace the existing unit.

This. I'm not sure about the servicing aspect of them but it takes a lot of amps to heat the water up "instantaneously".

ETA: I just remembered we'd use those under-sink things at work for lavatories in the rest rooms. They never got very hot and they seemed to fail for one reason or another within months of installation.

 

[CHCRandy]

And don't buy a Whirlpool.......or it will fail within 6 months and you will be servicing it. Suck it up and buy an AO Smith...with 6 or 10 year warranty.

 

[igotdiesel2]

Looking on the lowes website you can buy a 30 gallon tank for 240ish. A tankless will cost 450ish. That is the cheapest with a 80amp wiring to the unit. The standard for a tank is 30amp. You would spend more money getting everything in place than you would in savings. My advice to you is install the smallest tank heater ( not a mobile home one) and wrap it in a insulating blanket. My Mom has a tank heater and that is what she did. -Jason

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

When I replaced mine, I put ball valves input and output so if I have to drain it or replace it again, I can shut it off without draining all the plumbing. Probably should have put in some more plumbing to allow connection of the compressor to drain it faster. Definitely AO Smith, though, I had one last about 16 years.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Thanks to all. Traditional unit it is! Now here is hoping I can sweat this sucker myself. Last time I had to call in reinforcements... CM, you busy tomorrow evening for a visit to EXTREME NE Hendricks CO?

And don't buy a Whirlpool.......or it will fail within 6 months and you will be servicing it. Suck it up and buy an AO Smith...with 6 or 10 year warranty.

Must just be new ones. The one that went out is a Whirlpool and its well over 15 years old. The one sitting 20' behind me is also a Whirlpool and its got 5 or 6 on it with no problems.

When I replaced mine, I put ball valves input and output so if I have to drain it or replace it again, I can shut it off without draining all the plumbing. Probably should have put in some more plumbing to allow connection of the compressor to drain it faster. Definitely AO Smith, though, I had one last about 16 years.

I added a ball valve to mine, and will do the same on this one. they are AMAZEBALLS. And you can build a contraption to pressurize during draining without replumbing.

I built this to attach to my relief valve.

1: SET THE COMPRESSOR TOOL PRESSURE TO 20PSI! (too much will blow the tubing on my adapter)
2: turn it off (kill power, gas, etc).
3: turn off feed
4: open drain.
5: open relief valve. Let it drain for 2 mins.
6: Remove emergency relief drain hose and attach the contraption with compressor connected and shutoff valve off.
7: open air supply and wait for the drain to start spitting like crazy.
8: kill air shutoff.
9: close relief valve and wait for tank pressure to fall. (remove contraption and replace emergency drain hose)
10: close drain and refill!

This entire process takes me 20 minutes or so. Not all afternoon for a gravity dump.

ETA: As pictured, this is not up to code. To follow code you will need to spin off the NON THREADED, non reduced drain tube from the popoff valve and attach a threaded, reduced adapter for this application.

 

[churchmouse]

I am pretty busy tomorrow taking care of VUPDblue's heat pump. Cant promise I can make it.
Do you still have my cell.

 

[chubbs]

Unless she has 200 amp service in the house I wouldn't use a tankless. They pull some substantial amperage.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I am pretty busy tomorrow taking care of VUPDblue's heat pump. Cant promise I can make it.
Do you still have my cell.

I do still have your cell.

Tell that JBT that he can freeze another day because *I* pay his salary so I come first...

I'm pretty sure I can handle it in hindsight, and besides if I get too far in over my head it will be too late in the evening for you to be expected to get there. So if your services are needed, it wont be until Tuesday.

I just need to remember to evacuate the copper lines, clean, clean, and then clean again, and flux is my friend.

I say in hindsight because the problem I had in the past at my house was that I was dealing with solder joints below the bulk of the system resulting in a constant trickle that would prevent the copper from hitting the melting point of the solder (which also plagued a crotchety old retired plumber that came to fix my work ). I'll be working on probably the highest point in this system as the lines are all in the crawlspace of a ranch house and these come up the wall behind the unit. So the only copper pipes higher than these will be the shower heads.

 

[sig-guy]

Go with a standard tank unit. Tank-less requires a 200 amp main panel and maintenance. Not worth the extra expense.
Have problems with sweating copper, Sharkbite is the solution.
JFYI, The water heater photo above has a few issues with the pop-off. It should terminate within 6" of the floor, must not be reduced in size and must not terminate with a threaded end.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Go with a standard tank unit. Tank-less requires a 200 amp main panel and maintenance. Not worth the extra expense.
Have problems with sweating copper, Sharkbite is the solution.
JFYI, The water heater photo above has a few issues with the pop-off. It should terminate within 6" of the floor, must not be reduced in size and must not terminate with a threaded end.

Thanks for the heads-up, I appreciate it. (no purple) I'll make sure it's fixed before the inspection when we sell.

 

[CHCRandy]

Must just be new ones. The one that went out is a Whirlpool and its well over 15 years old. The one sitting 20' behind me is also a Whirlpool and its got 5 or 6 on it with no problems.

Maybe, but I have 2 of them failed after 3 months in the last year.....and if you look at the returns at Lowes, you will see they have quite the collection of new ones that have been returned. Just thought I would offer my experience from this year to you. Sadly, a lot has changed in 15 years.

 

[JettaKnight]

When I replaced mine, I put ball valves input and output so if I have to drain it or replace it again, I can shut it off without draining all the plumbing. Probably should have put in some more plumbing to allow connection of the compressor to drain it faster. Definitely AO Smith, though, I had one last about 16 years.

Some people don't have valves there?

That's just being lazy and/or a cheapstake.

Have problems with sweating copper, Sharkbite is the solution.

What's this "Sharkbite" you speak of?

JFYI, The water heater photo above has a few issues with the pop-off. It should terminate within 6" of the floor, must not be reduced in size and must not terminate with a threaded end.

Yup. That's to prevent someone from being blasted with boiling water, not to make draining the tank more convenient.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

And don't buy a Whirlpool.......or it will fail within 6 months and you will be servicing it. Suck it up and buy an AO Smith...with 6 or 10 year warranty.

I had a Whirlpool water heater that I got from Lowes and it had a 6 year warranty. It started leaking at about 5 years, 6 months and Whirlpool got with Lowes and set me up with a brand new unit, free of charge (I did the install).

I had suspected that the water heater failed early because I didn't put dielectric unions on when I installed it. I made sure to include them with the replacement heater.

 

[Cameramonkey]

What's this "Sharkbite" you speak of?

Ive seen them at Lowes, but in my mind I have no confidence in them. seems too temporary in my mind.

Quick Connect Fittings: Push Fit Plumbing & Other Quick Connect Pipe Fittings

 

[HoughMade]

Ive seen them at Lowes, but in my mind I have no confidence in them. seems too temporary in my mind.

Quick Connect Fittings: Push Fit Plumbing & Other Quick Connect Pipe Fittings

They are as reliable as the person installing them and, believe it or not, code compliant for in-wall connections. They get expensive for more than just a few connections, but for adding a run, doing a water heater, or repair, they are great. I am using them to transition from copper to PEX to put in a new laundry room.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Hmmm.... How do they hold up to torque? For instance a transition from shark bite to threaded adapter? Or a shark bite ball valve... Will I have to worry about the valve twisting on the pipe?

 

[tmschuller]

I work in maintenance at a university and the sharkbites are great.. no torch, no mess. Lowes or home depot/plumbing supply place has them.. Menards around me has a extensive selection. You can transition from practically anything you want. valves.. adapters. Make a good cut and our rep. has us sand the pipe and have only had one leak (2" pipe) You can buy the stainless hoses that have sharkbite or press to fit cuts out elbows and gives you some wiggle room if you need it. Just a thought.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Another wrench to throw into the works:

How about adding a water softener, even a small one, along with the new water heater?

I'm glad we have one, our water service is 21-22 GPG. Almost hard enough to chew.

The water softener brings it down to a much more manageable level...though I still end up with plenty of crud on my humidifier filters...