EMS Carry or Not Carry?

[stephen87]

Yeah, but those people don't really count. The Constitution says all persons have the right to bear arms, not all persons have the privilege to bear arms as the government sees fit.

 

[jeremy]

Yeah, but those people don't really count. The Constitution says all persons have the right to bear arms, not all persons have the privilege to bear arms as the government sees fit.

Those People are also the Voting Majority often enough...

 

[fng120]

So because an EMT is not trained by the government, they should not have the the right to carry on duty? By that token, the government should have to train every person that wants a LTCH, every person that wants to talk, vote, write, etc. That goes against the Constitution, but maybe you don't believe that all man are created equal and that we have certain God given rights. Maybe we should change it up to government trained privileges.


Exactly! Someone who gets it. You can't require training for something that is not required by he job. LEOs train because they're required to carry a firearm. EMTs are trained in using medical equipment because they are required to. It is on a person to get training if they wish to do so, regardless of if they are EMT, Meijer cashier, Kroger manager, etc. [purple]Maybe it should be added to the LTCH requirements that all persons should take a mandatory class and then every 2-3 years take a refresher course on firearms.[/purple]

This is the problem with questions like this. Everyone wants to bring in the 2nd. Look people do you really think it is a good idea for medical personell to carry firearms. In the military the medic carry only a pistol. That is so that if they need to use one in a combat zone they can. Our primary responsibility is caring for people. Lets not bring in the 2nd on issues where it dosent apply. If you dont feel safe not carrying at a job, then dont get a job where you cant carry. Each person here is entitled to their opinion but lets not start in on each other.

 

[stephen87]

The 2nd applies everywhere. You say don't get a job doing it if you feel the need for a firearm there? I don't carry a firearm because I anticipate using it. Hell, I hope I never have to use it, but I carry it in case I need it. People say EMTs stage at scenes where the police are needed, but what about the ones where police aren't needed? You don't need a gun, right? Wrong. In Mount Vernon, NH, in 2010, EMTs responded to call of someone having difficulty breathing They showed up with no LEOs. While talking to the patient and her father they were attacked. They waited for LEOs to show up while still fighting the attackers. They were eventually taken to the hospital with various injuries. I'm sure there are other instances also. So I guess when I become an EMT, I'll wait for LEOs to clear every scene first.

 

[fng120]

Ok I'm done with you. Thank you for letting me express my opinion on your question and being critisized.

 

[jeremy]

This is the problem with questions like this. Everyone wants to bring in the 2nd. Look people do you really think it is a good idea for medical personell to carry firearms. In the military the medic carry only a pistol. That is so that if they need to use one in a combat zone they can. Our primary responsibility is caring for people. Lets not bring in the 2nd on issues where it dosent apply. If you dont feel safe not carrying at a job, then dont get a job where you cant carry. Each person here is entitled to their opinion but lets not start in on each other.

Your thoughts on Medics are quite antiquated...

The US Army Medic carries both a Rifle and a Pistol. A US Army Medic is expected to fight along with the rest of his Team and Squad.

 

[fng120]

Your thoughts on Medics are quite antiquated...

The US Army Medic carries both a Rifle and a Pistol. A US Army Medic is expected to fight along with the rest of his Team and Squad.

Thanks for the correction, when I was in they only carried a pistol.

 

[whoismunky]

EMS, pizza delivery, plumber, preacher, baker, butcher, candlestick maker, etc.

I want all good people armed.

This is how I feel on the issue. I understand you guys saying, "I wouldn't trust some people with a pair of scissors," but we have to remember it's not up to us. Keeping and bearing arms is their right just like its yours =)

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Did the scene look safe from the window of the ambulance? I know you've already put your BSI on right? What could possibly happen?

 

[FFJakeT]

This is the problem with questions like this. Everyone wants to bring in the 2nd. Look people do you really think it is a good idea for medical personell to carry firearms. In the military the medic carry only a pistol. That is so that if they need to use one in a combat zone they can. Our primary responsibility is caring for people. Lets not bring in the 2nd on issues where it dosent apply. If you dont feel safe not carrying at a job, then dont get a job where you cant carry. Each person here is entitled to their opinion but lets not start in on each other.

Really trying not to bash you here at all, but would you like to elaborate on where the 2a applies and where it does not? I am going to be an EMT hopefully within a week (all I have to do is take the state written), and I am a part time firefighter, and our LE does a pretty good job of handling things. But I still feel like I should be allowed to carry, since I have a LTCH, and being on a FD, you normally have a cleaner record than most. Now, I do not think that OC'ing while on duty EMS is a good idea at all, too close to patients and too many things going on at once. IF LE gets that close to someone, it is already not a good situation. But b/c my career choice is FF/EMT, to help people in their greatest time of need, I should not be allowed to carry? I think law should say nothing in regards of it, but department SOP/SOG's should allow somewhat deep concealment of a handgun. Only b/c your mindset should be on patient care, not "are they going to slip there hand around and attemp to grab my gun off of my hip?" people will say well you should not be in that position and know your surroundings.... ya I know, I get that, but that is part of the job, being face down on someone trying to breath for them, or as a paramedic, push drugs on them to restart their heart. Something like a BUG on duty would be a good idea in my opinion, something like a LC9/LCP in a pocket holster in your cargo pocket. Carrying a full size .45 in a hip holster out in the open? not so much. Is it your right? yes absolutely, but it is not responsible. And to clarify my opinion on bringing the 2a into the discussion. I believe it applies everywhere, every day. Give them an inch, they take a mile. and FNG, thank you for your service.

 

[stephen87]

Ok I'm done with you. Thank you for letting me express my opinion on your question and being critisized.

Isn't that what makes a good argument? I'm not saying you're wrong, because opinions are never wrong. I'm just saying that I disagree with your opinions. If you can't handle that over the internet maybe you should just avoid it. You think EMTs should not be allowed to carry due to the nature of the work, I think they should be allowed to because of the types of people they come into contact with. I understand their job is to save lives, but they have to remain safe first and foremost. EMTs are placed into dangerous situations. Even ones that don't seem dangerous can turn out to be so. LEOs won't always be there to save the day and that's where you come in. It is your job to protect yourself. An officer's job is reactive, however unless they are there with you that reaction is a lot slower than what it will take to defend you.

 

[fng120]

I get what you are saying. But carrying a gun in EMS, in my opinion, only causes more things to worry about. I carry a boot knife at all times. It is my responsibility to be aware of my surroundings at all times. If someone were to come into a room while I was assisting a patient and had a gun or tried to attack me, I have that to resort to. Having a gun tucked under a unifrom shirt or coat in the winter would be too hard to get to. I get that it's our 2nd amendment right to carry, but in this situation I will just agree to disagree with you. Thanks

 

[elwoodward]

Take this into consideration.
Currently EMS isn't trained to carry like LEOs. People see life savers and easy victims. depending on if your calling for help or just a psychopath calling 911 for an easy target.


Scenario 1: Unarmed EMS:
You get a call to a unconscious female still breathing. You arrive on scene older male meets you at door takes you to female and tells you she tripped over a rug, cord, ect... While the EMTs take care of patient she wakes up confused about what happened and why EMS is there. Male is angry that shes alive pulls a knife attempts to stab female but stabs EMS first to get to the female. Now there is 2 dead or at least injured EMTs and the injured or now dead patient and a killer on the loose.


Scenario 2: EMS Allowed to carry with LTCH.
You get a call to a unconscious female still breathing. You arrive on scene older male meets you at door takes you to female and tells you she tripped over a rug, cord, ect... While the EMTs take care of patient she wakes up confused about what happened and why EMS is there. Male is angry that shes alive pulls a knife attempts to stab female manages to make contact with one EMT other EMT pulls gun shoots male until he is down handcuff him then get backup. EMT radios for PD and 3 ambulances (1 per patient). Treats partner and female until PD and ambulances arrive.
(under Indiana law attempted felony can be citizens arrest just because your an EMT that doesn't make you not a citizen.)

 

[fng120]

Like I said I see your point but I could stab that guy in the throat quicker than I could shoot him if he were that close.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Take this into consideration.
Currently EMS isn't trained to carry like LEOs. People see life savers and easy victims. depending on if your calling for help or just a psychopath calling 911 for an easy target.


Scenario 1: Unarmed EMS:
You get a call to a unconscious female still breathing. You arrive on scene older male meets you at door takes you to female and tells you she tripped over a rug, cord, ect... While the EMTs take care of patient she wakes up confused about what happened and why EMS is there. Male is angry that shes alive pulls a knife attempts to stab female but stabs EMS first to get to the female. Now there is 2 dead or at least injured EMTs and the injured or now dead patient and a killer on the loose.


Scenario 2: EMS Allowed to carry with LTCH.
You get a call to a unconscious female still breathing. You arrive on scene older male meets you at door takes you to female and tells you she tripped over a rug, cord, ect... While the EMTs take care of patient she wakes up confused about what happened and why EMS is there. Male is angry that shes alive pulls a knife attempts to stab female manages to make contact with one EMT other EMT pulls gun shoots male until he is down handcuff him then get backup. EMT radios for PD and 3 ambulances (1 per patient). Treats partner and female until PD and ambulances arrive.
(under Indiana law attempted felony can be citizens arrest just because your an EMT that doesn't make you not a citizen.)

Hold on there. I agree with having the right to carry. That doesn't include carrying cuffs or making arrests. As a medic, my job is to take care of people. If I was armed on duty, I could still do that, but I'm not there to make arrests. To illustrate, let's take that scenario further:

Male attempts to stab female, but stops when he sees the wrong end of a .45 in his face, drops the knife and backs off. PD is called for backup, 20 min. away. Your patient is in extremis and needs immediate transport. If you've made an arrest, you have to keep your suspect in custody until LE arrives, but you can't exactly do that and transport your patient, and neither can your partner transport the patient with you staying behind to maintain custody. If you've made no arrest, you get a good description of him and if necessary, you let him go to do your job and your patient has a chance of living.

It comes down to the question of what you're there to do. If you want to make arrests, you can be a cop. There's a reason so few places have dual service with LE and EMS, though: what do you do as a responder if your patient admits to using drugs or to drinking underage or similar? As an EMT, you are bound by confidentiality not to reveal that information except to the physician and nurses taking care of that patient. As a LEO, you are expected to effect an arrest. To do so, however, compromises your objectivity and pretty well SCREWS you *and* your service for anyone to ever reveal anything like that again, which can result in very bad outcomes.

I had a coworker who was a part time deputy town marshal. He told me once that he had to differentiate in his mind what he was doing and when. This meant as well that if he learned something on the ambulance, he couldn't later use that information as a cop. (it could give him reason to check something out, but he couldn't, for example, use knowledge he came by as an EMT to swear out a warrant as a LEO.) Decide which job you want.

OTOH, if your sole goal is self-defense, handcuffs and arrests don't come into play.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[elwoodward]

Hold on there. I agree with having the right to carry. That doesn't include carrying cuffs or making arrests. As a medic, my job is to take care of people. If I was armed on duty, I could still do that, but I'm not there to make arrests. To illustrate, let's take that scenario further:

Male attempts to stab female, but stops when he sees the wrong end of a .45 in his face, drops the knife and backs off. PD is called for backup, 20 min. away. Your patient is in extremis and needs immediate transport. If you've made an arrest, you have to keep your suspect in custody until LE arrives, but you can't exactly do that and transport your patient, and neither can your partner transport the patient with you staying behind to maintain custody. If you've made no arrest, you get a good description of him and if necessary, you let him go to do your job and your patient has a chance of living.

It comes down to the question of what you're there to do. If you want to make arrests, you can be a cop. There's a reason so few places have dual service with LE and EMS, though: what do you do as a responder if your patient admits to using drugs or to drinking underage or similar? As an EMT, you are bound by confidentiality not to reveal that information except to the physician and nurses taking care of that patient. As a LEO, you are expected to effect an arrest. To do so, however, compromises your objectivity and pretty well SCREWS you *and* your service for anyone to ever reveal anything like that again, which can result in very bad outcomes.

I had a coworker who was a part time deputy town marshal. He told me once that he had to differentiate in his mind what he was doing and when. This meant as well that if he learned something on the ambulance, he couldn't later use that information as a cop. (it could give him reason to check something out, but he couldn't, for example, use knowledge he came by as an EMT to swear out a warrant as a LEO.) Decide which job you want.

OTOH, if your sole goal is self-defense, handcuffs and arrests don't come into play.

Blessings,
Bill

And i totally agree the only reason the man would be cuffed would be for the safety of the patient and EMS crew. With the felony he cant sue you for holding him against his will. And for the EMT confidentiality thing according to the state of Nevada in Rogers v. State Doctor patient confidentiality doesn't extend to EMS. yes this in Indiana and that is Nevada but im sure some would say the same thing for Indiana if someone tried to sue an emt for telling the police.

 

[unionblue19]

If they carry they need to be trained police reserve to carry one and have arrest power in that state and or territory if they need to come down to that. It won't be thier primary but be the back up to what they are put into at the time. It be good for rural/BFE places of EMS but, in city not really

 

[Bill of Rights]

And i totally agree the only reason the man would be cuffed would be for the safety of the patient and EMS crew. With the felony he cant sue you for holding him against his will. And for the EMT confidentiality thing according to the state of Nevada in Rogers v. State Doctor patient confidentiality doesn't extend to EMS. yes this in Indiana and that is Nevada but im sure some would say the same thing for Indiana if someone tried to sue an emt for telling the police.

Ah, but HIPAA applies to all of us.

 

[elwoodward]

Ah, but HIPAA applies to all of us.

Ah yes HIPAA does apply to us all. Also HIPAA only applies to personal medical information or information that can identify the person. If you tell the officer your patient said they smoked weed an hour ago you didn't disclose any personal information.

But HIPAA also has exemptions. Here is just a few copied from the HIPAA website
http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html :

Law Enforcement Purposes. Covered entities may disclose protected health information to law enforcement officials for law enforcement purposes under the following six circumstances, and subject to specified conditions: (1) as required by law (including court orders, court-ordered warrants, subpoenas) and administrative requests; (2) to identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness, or missing person; (3) in response to a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime; (4) to alert law enforcement of a person’s death, if the covered entity suspects that criminal activity caused the death; (5) when a covered entity believes that protected health information is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises; and (6) by a covered health care provider in a medical emergency not occurring on its premises, when necessary to inform law enforcement about the commission and nature of a crime, the location of the crime or crime victims, and the perpetrator of the crime.

 

[iamaclone45]

Ah, but HIPAA applies to all of us.

This is going to be taking the EMS Carry discussion even further off topic, but here is a good explanation of what is and isn't allowed when it comes to disclosure of PHI (protected health information) to the police. Pages 1 and then continued on 10 & 11.

http://www.the-aaa.org/downloads/members_only/publications/ASJ/ASJ_spring04FINAL.pdf