Facts on Gun-related Death in America…

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  • jamil

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    Not to "Denny" this up but 2016 is a world ago in terms of crime. 7 years is an eternity. Crime in just the last 3 years is so different that prior to 2020. The study demonstrates the state of crime in 2016, that is about it.
    Is it your sense, given your line of work, that crimes, where the perpetrators are armed with legally owned firearms, is now a higher proportion?

    I suppose the spike in gun sales in 2020 could account for it if a larger portion of the gun buyers were democrats. :):
     

    wtburnette

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    I don't see anything wrong with tracking what instrument caused the deaths. The issue is with the misuse and twisting of the stat for political reasons.

    The problem, to me, is that it doesn't belong in statistics on gun crime. If you're talking about gun deaths in general, that info is relevant, but when talking about gun crimes, as in shootings and murders, suicides shouldn't be listed. It detracts from the relevant subject matter.
     

    Denny347

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    In other words, remove firearms and people who want to commit suicide will find a way. Exactly why I say those deaths should be removed.
    Yes...and no. Sometimes the proximity to firearms feeds into the rashness of the decision to end their own life. I have no stats to support this other than antidotal (I'm not sure you can ever measure this). However, I know that this was the issue with my step-brother. He was having significant health issues and suffering from depression. One late late, he was drunk and arguing with his wife. During the height of the argument, he reached down the picked up a pistol, pointed it to his head, and pulled the trigger. Once he realized he had shot himself in the head, he showed obvious signs on regret on his face, then he died. I 100% know that had he not had his pistol, he would not have died that night. Who knows what the future would have been for him had he not done that. I do know that another form of suicide takes more effort with a higher chance of survival. Sometimes there is no stopping a suicide, sometimes rash decisions are only amplified by the ease of the trigger pull.
     
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    Denny347

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    Is it your sense, given your line of work, that crimes, where the perpetrators are armed with legally owned firearms, is now a higher proportion?

    I suppose the spike in gun sales in 2020 could account for it if a larger portion of the gun buyers were democrats. :):
    "Legal" = "Not prohibited" so yes, a MUCH larger of "non-prohibited" persons are committing crimes with firearms these days. A non-prohibited person with a firearm that is not listed in NCIC as stolen = legally owned firearm.
     

    jamil

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    "Legal" = "Not prohibited" so yes, a MUCH larger of "non-prohibited" persons are committing crimes with firearms these days. A non-prohibited person with a firearm that is not listed in NCIC as stolen = legally owned firearm.
    So basically democrats.
     

    wtburnette

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    Yes...and no. Sometimes the proximity to firearms feeds into the rashness of the decision to end their own life. I have to stats to support this other than antidotal (I'm not sure you can ever measure this). However, I know that this was the issue with my step-brother. He was having significant health issues and suffering from depression. One late late, he was drunk and arguing with his wife. During the height of the argument, he reached down the picked up a pistol, pointed it to his head, and pulled the trigger. Once he realized he had shot himself in the head, he showed obvious signs on regret on his face, then he died. I 100% know that had he not had his pistol, he would not have died that night. Who knows what the future would have been for him had he not done that. I do know that another form of suicide takes more effort with a higher chance of survival. Sometimes there is no stopping a suicide, sometimes rash decisions are only amplified by the ease of the trigger pull.

    My condolences. I agree with what you are saying, but feel it should be separated out. Gun crimes and then other issues or something along those lines.
     

    jamil

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    Yes...and no. Sometimes the proximity to firearms feeds into the rashness of the decision to end their own life. I have to stats to support this other than antidotal (I'm not sure you can ever measure this). However, I know that this was the issue with my step-brother. He was having significant health issues and suffering from depression. One late late, he was drunk and arguing with his wife. During the height of the argument, he reached down the picked up a pistol, pointed it to his head, and pulled the trigger. Once he realized he had shot himself in the head, he showed obvious signs on regret on his face, then he died. I 100% know that had he not had his pistol, he would not have died that night. Who knows what the future would have been for him had he not done that. I do know that another form of suicide takes more effort with a higher chance of survival. Sometimes there is no stopping a suicide, sometimes rash decisions are only amplified by the ease of the trigger pull.
    People who are suicidal will tend to find a way to do it. But this guy didn’t seem to be suicidal, other than in the moment, albeit the depression was probably a factor. Booze was a factor. The argument was a factor. The gun was obviously a factor. Would you have the same confidence with any other of those factors? Obviously the gun was the biggest factor. Without that how else could an instinctive action in the heat of the moment end so abruptly, conclusively? Maybe a knife? Or stepping off in front of a train if that were available?
     

    Ingomike

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    Not to "Denny" this up but 2016 is a world ago in terms of crime. 7 years is an eternity. Crime in just the last 3 years is so different that prior to 2020. The study demonstrates the state of crime in 2016, that is about it.
    Do you think this has changed? That lawful gun owners are now committing crimes at a greater rate?
     

    Ingomike

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    "Legal" = "Not prohibited" so yes, a MUCH larger of "non-prohibited" persons are committing crimes with firearms these days. A non-prohibited person with a firearm that is not listed in NCIC as stolen = legally owned firearm.
    Do you think this has changed? That lawful gun owners are now committing crimes at a greater rate?
    Got it. Thanks
     

    wtburnette

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    Is meant to create panic in the sheeple…

    Agreed. Take the suicide info out, or make it a footnote and then add all other causes of murder and the gun crime data doesn't look as scary. Even better, break it out by things like repeat offenders, known drug/gang members and such to get a truer picture. Won't ever happen, but one can dream.
     

    Denny347

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    People who are suicidal will tend to find a way to do it. But this guy didn’t seem to be suicidal, other than in the moment, albeit the depression was probably a factor. Booze was a factor. The argument was a factor. The gun was obviously a factor. Would you have the same confidence with any other of those factors? Obviously the gun was the biggest factor. Without that how else could an instinctive action in the heat of the moment end so abruptly, conclusively? Maybe a knife? Or stepping off in front of a train if that were available?
    The gun is one of the few tools that once you pull that 8lb trigger, life will change at 1200 ft per sec. Is it the gun's fault? Of course not. It is but a hunk of steel/plastic. It is the WILL to use it that is the issue. However, that WILL may only last moments. Suicide by firearm can be completely impulsive and literally can happen as soon as you can grab it and pull the trigger. Thought to death can take just a couple of seconds. Suicide by OD takes planning (find the pills, choose the pills, or gather the pills), ingestion, absorption, then either significant illness or death. Death could take hours (may pass out quickly though). Hanging takes MUCH more planning. Choosing the means and the location, much more involved. Lets face it, impulsive people will gravitate to the quickest answer to their problem. We are seeing this with road rage, verbal disputes, etc as well. It's been a loooooooooong time since I've seen a suicide attempt, let alone completion, by knife/razor.
     

    Denny347

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    I will say that if you have a loved one (family or friend) who is struggling with depression, suicidal thoughts, take custody of their firearms. Will it remove the threat? No, but it will significantly cut down on the impulsiveness of a suicide attempt. Don't live with regrets because you didn't want to hurt feelings. Trust me, it sucks.
     

    bobzilla

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    I will say that if you have a loved one (family or friend) who is struggling with depression, suicidal thoughts, take custody of their firearms. Will it remove the threat? No, but it will significantly cut down on the impulsiveness of a suicide attempt. Don't live with regrets because you didn't want to hurt feelings. Trust me, it sucks.
    I've been lucky in that regard. I deal with depression (some days better than others) but I have never tended towards suicide or violence. I think the act of doing that, while at the time will be painful, the depressed person will eventually realize you did it because you care. KNowing someone cares is so huge.
     

    jamil

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    The gun is one of the few tools that once you pull that 8lb trigger, life will change at 1200 ft per sec. Is it the gun's fault? Of course not. It is but a hunk of steel/plastic. It is the WILL to use it that is the issue. However, that WILL may only last moments. Suicide by firearm can be completely impulsive and literally can happen as soon as you can grab it and pull the trigger. Thought to death can take just a couple of seconds. Suicide by OD takes planning (find the pills, choose the pills, or gather the pills), ingestion, absorption, then either significant illness or death. Death could take hours (may pass out quickly though). Hanging takes MUCH more planning. Choosing the means and the location, much more involved. Lets face it, impulsive people will gravitate to the quickest answer to their problem. We are seeing this with road rage, verbal disputes, etc as well. It's been a loooooooooong time since I've seen a suicide attempt, let alone completion, by knife/razor.
    Something we don’t have happen here much is suicide by train. But I suppose if you’re in a busy train station, it’s the same dynamic. A thought that only lasts a few seconds could bring about a conclusive end. Not many ways are that abrupt. You have to have the means available. Gun is near by or you happen to be at the train station or on a bridge or in a car. Or on a busy street Nd step in front of a bus.

    Anyway it’s useful to note the difference between fault and factor.
     

    KLB

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    Something we don’t have happen here much is suicide by train. But I suppose if you’re in a busy train station, it’s the same dynamic. A thought that only lasts a few seconds could bring about a conclusive end. Not many ways are that abrupt. You have to have the means available. Gun is near by or you happen to be at the train station or on a bridge or in a car. Or on a busy street Nd step in front of a bus.

    Anyway it’s useful to note the difference between fault and factor.
    Jumping can be another.
     

    Bassat

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    Yes...and no. Sometimes the proximity to firearms feeds into the rashness of the decision to end their own life. I have no stats to support this other than antidotal (I'm not sure you can ever measure this). However, I know that this was the issue with my step-brother. He was having significant health issues and suffering from depression. One late late, he was drunk and arguing with his wife. During the height of the argument, he reached down the picked up a pistol, pointed it to his head, and pulled the trigger. Once he realized he had shot himself in the head, he showed obvious signs on regret on his face, then he died. I 100% know that had he not had his pistol, he would not have died that night (emphasis, responder). Who knows what the future would have been for him had he not done that. I do know that another form of suicide takes more effort with a higher chance of survival. Sometimes there is no stopping a suicide, sometimes rash decisions are only amplified by the ease of the trigger pull.

    I have bolded the sentence in your post that bothers me. No, you don't (didn't) know that. This is confirmed by your statement that follows it. Nobody knows what may have happened had he not had that gun. It is entirely conceivable that he could have left the house in a blind, drunken rage and been run over crossing the street, or taken the family car and killed himself and another family of four headed out for Pizza and Pepsi, or passed out and woke up the next day empassioned to right all the wrongs in his life and begun a journey to cure cancer. The point is: nobody knows. You can't assume that had a gun not been present, that he'd still be here.

    My nephew killed himself with tank of nitrogen and plastic bag. Had he not done that, nobody knows what he'd be doing today. He could very well have gotten high (heroin was his drug of choice), and OD'd. Or taken to his car and killed the family of four out for dinner.

    I truly am as sorry for the loss of your step-brother as I am for the loss of my nephew. It is invalid to assume any future, for either victim, had the tragic events not happened. As you stated, "Who knows..."
     

    Denny347

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    I have bolded the sentence in your post that bothers me. No, you don't (didn't) know that. This is confirmed by your statement that follows it. Nobody knows what may have happened had he not had that gun. It is entirely conceivable that he could have left the house in a blind, drunken rage and been run over crossing the street, or taken the family car and killed himself and another family of four headed out for Pizza and Pepsi, or passed out and woke up the next day empassioned to right all the wrongs in his life and begun a journey to cure cancer. The point is: nobody knows. You can't assume that had a gun not been present, that he'd still be here.

    My nephew killed himself with tank of nitrogen and plastic bag. Had he not done that, nobody knows what he'd be doing today. He could very well have gotten high (heroin was his drug of choice), and OD'd. Or taken to his car and killed the family of four out for dinner.

    I truly am as sorry for the loss of your step-brother as I am for the loss of my nephew. It is invalid to assume any future, for either victim, had the tragic events not happened. As you stated, "Who knows..."
    That night we got about a foot of snow and it was hovering around zero degrees. He wasn't driving anywhere. They fought all the time. He was prone to impulsive actions then always regretted them. Ok, not 100%. I'm 98% sure if he didn't have his pistol sitting near his couch in the middle of his drunken argument, he would have lived another day. Now, what the future held after that, I don't know.
     
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