I recall a story a couple years ago about an officer with a revolver who was killed in a shootout. He was firing from behind his car and when it was all over they found he had placed his empty cases neatly in a row standing up, on the top of his car. An investigation showed that that was the way they had trained at the range.
EXACTLY! I've broken Dept/company owned Pmags/speed loaders like crazy and no one ever said a word about it.When I first got on I carried a 2.5" model 66 as an issued duty weapon. I recall being told to catch the ejected brass. Now days I carry a Sig 229 and when we shoot I drop the mag when it is empty and where it falls I don't care. We hopefully learn from every officer involved shooting how to improve things and give us every chance to survive. The Newhall incident, then the Miami FBI shoot out and then the California bank shoot out. The LA shoot out is why I have an issued rifle sitting next to me
It's why its so funny when people think they will be pulling off head shots off with a 22 against a moving target that is shooting at you. Hell i get **** from my grandpa for not carrying a jframe i carry a G26. "If you cant get the job with 5 shots you shouldn't bother. " Scumbags like to travel in 2-3's id like more then 5 shots.
The issued FBI 10mm load is identical to the .40 S&W load - but the .40 offered more capacity in a smaller framed pistol.
It's just about as bad as the Newhall Massacre where the CHP officers were wasting time putting their spent casings into their pockets. Whenever I have done tactical training Drop and go! As soon as the mag is out of the well, or hit your ejector plunger on a revolver and sweep the casings they head for the ground! When the FOG of war kicks off you fall back to how you trained.
Train how you want to fight, because you'll fight how you trained!
I think this incident was more of a failure of tactics than weapons.
Tom Givens has an excellent detailed analysis of this that is covered in his Instructor Development course.
Is that available online?
There is also a good movie called "In the line of duty" that is a Hollywood version of the Investigation and shootout. It is based on a lot of factual data and is an excellent movie.
I agree! Tactics were based on unrealistic training during that era. I personally believe it was the type of training the agents had been through that contributed to the failures. It seems like they made tactical decisions based on their previous SOP's and training, but the training purpose was flawed (qualifications vs. real life). It's a good lesson for us today. They didn't know what they didn't know.
Although I do agree that the blame was put too strongly on "things," in all fairness the Ammunition did have some play to it as many ammunition companies had a different perspective when building ammo during that time. "Stopping Power" was in a large part an unmeasurable standard that they were building towards. It tended to be more "marketing" than science and design. Much of the ammunition of that era built to those standards did not penetrate consistently. I don't think the ammunition manufacturers really learned anything from this incident but rather met the demands of the FBI when they created their FBI Ballistic Protocol tests.
Good post! It's nice seeing everyone's thoughts on this. I am going to read through Tom's analysis again tonight. Good stuff.
It's very interesting how many of the FBI guys were wounded in the hands and arms. The one that essentially ended the fight did it dragging his severely wounded arm. How many folks could even make effective one handed shots? Weak handed the same? Reloads?
Funny in a way, though, for all that evolution, flailing around technologically from 10 to .40, the FBI and ALOT of police departments are going back to 9mm.
Poor tactics and underestimation of the enemy. Enemy is armed with long guns, just bring pistols, MAYBE a shotgun. That plan was full of suck to begin with. Even a single MP5 or M16 would have GREATLY changed the outcome. Then again, with ammo tech being what it was (9mm Silvertips, 158gr soft lead SWCHP), not sure it would have made TOO much of a difference with all that autobody and autoglass around... I don't think there were many, if any, bonded 5.56/.223 or 9mm around at the time.