Fearing For Your Life Does Not Justify Deadly Force

[MarkC]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to HoughMade again"

You cannot go wrong with Ron Swanson!

 

[Fargo]

Fargo, T.Lex, and Mr. Hough have explained this well, IMHO.

Up yours Freeman!


Now to log off for lent before he can respond.

 

[Dead Duck]

Up yours Freeman!


Now to log off for lent before he can respond.

So you gave up INGO so you can continue drinking beer?

 

[Fargo]

So you gave up INGO so you can continue drinking beer?

No, I give up beer for Lent. Not drinking, but just beer. I like beer.

 

[rhino]

The casual observer will note that rhino has uncharacteristically chosen to "stay in his lane" on this topic and notes that the choices is not universal.

 

[MarkC]

Up yours Freeman!


Now to log off for lent before he can respond.

Well, in fairness, I had responded before I saw Kirk's posts....

But I'm not sure that it would have made a difference! (Sorry, Kirk!)

 

[PistolBob]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6....if in doubt, shoot to kill.

 

[DRob]

The casual observer will note that rhino has uncharacteristically chosen to "stay in his lane" on this topic and notes that the choices is not universal.

So noted! However, staying in one's own lane is not required, expected, or practiced regularly on INGO! You are commended.

 

[MarkC]

The casual observer will note that rhino has uncharacteristically chosen to "stay in his lane" on this topic and notes that the choices is not universal.

So noted! However, staying in one's own lane is not required, expected, or practiced regularly on INGO! You are commended.

Commended? NO, judged! It's not as much fun when everyone stays in his or her lane!

 

[cbhausen]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6....if in doubt, shoot to kill.

Let’s see how well “I was in doubt so I shot to kill” works with a jury of your peers.

I will stick with “I was certain he was going to kill so I shot to stop the threat”. YMMV

 

[Ark]

I suspect "fear for my life" became a meme as a result of the media portraying the phrase as magic words that allow police officers to walk away from shootings no matter how obviously unjust they were to the rest of us.

Yet another information disservice perpetrated in the name of outrage and clicks. There are people sitting in prison today who wrongly believe "fear for my life" was a free ticket to shoot anyone, anywhere.

 

[rhino]

So noted! However, staying in one's own lane is not required, expected, or practiced regularly on INGO! You are commended.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed!

Commended? NO, judged! It's not as much fun when everyone stays in his or her lane!

You make a good point. It's almost as if I had that in mind when I mentioned it . . .

 

[Selfpreservation]

Geez, would you people please define your terms? Contrary to the OP, “Fear” is not limited by definition to an emotion.

In a ton of contexts, it simply means a belief. “I fear the Rams will not be able to best the Patriots.” is not an emotional statement.

That is why the courts have used the word “fear” in the context of self-defense going way back to the common law. It just means you believe that someone is going to kill or hurt you. The reasonableness of that belief is a different question.

You have to believe someone is going to kill or hurt you. It has to be a reasonable belief you can articulate. Fear has nothing to do with it.

 

[Fargo]

You have to believe someone is going to kill or hurt you. It has to be a reasonable belief you can articulate. Fear has nothing to do with it.

Your term is not defined in the law the way you think it is.

 

[Ingomike]

I think if you are genuinely in fear of a redhead in a blue dress, warning shots are not only permitted, but expected...

MM

 

[Selfpreservation]

In the end, people (LEO and non-LEO alike) need to explain the specific details, facts, and circumstances that would lead a reasonable person (LEO and/or non-LEO) to believe that deadly force was necessary. Keywords...SPECIFIC DETAILS, FACTS, and CIRCUMSTANCES... You are not going to get away with "I feared for my life" and leave it at that. It bothers me that people think that is all LEO's have to say to make a shoot justified. Their ignorance of basic legal concepts is astonishing.

I agree. It's astonishing to me that LEO and private citizens who carry a firearm do not know and understand this basic concept. However, as I stated, I posted this because my experience teaching both private sector and law enforcement has shown me that many don't. There are too many contributing factors as to why to post here. That would need it's own post.
But this is a gun forum and based on some of the replies to this post, you can see why use of force law needs to be a bigger part of training! I include it in every class we teach.

 

[Selfpreservation]

Well, assuming arguendo that your fear (aka belief) is reasonable then, yes, that is all you need to justify self-defense, including deadly force.

Fear is not an emotion, it is the term of art for belief since before my family was kicked out of England after the War of Devolution.
fearDictionary result for fear


/ˈfir/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important]

• 1.
  an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
  
  
  And no, it's not all you need.

[/COLOR]



Ability, opportunity, intent? What is this? LFI? And it was AOJ, nothing to do with intent.

Geez, no, AOJ is not controlling. It is the subjective-objective test of reasonableness of the defendant who is purporting self-defense that is controlling.

LFI? AOJ?.....WTF? LOL?



So everyone on the range with me be advised you have the ability, opportunity and intent to cause sbi or death. I shall act accordingly.

Not what I said at all. Go back and read my post.

 

[ditcherman]

We've kind of had this conversation on your IG feed, and the only thing I can figure is that most people sort of use 'fear' and 'believe' interchangeably, where the actions of the threat are construed as a negative belief. You are most certainly calm, cool, and collected, probably through training, but your average person who is appearing first to police and then in court, will most certainly feel fear, and that translates directly to a belief.
I tend to not want to trust my feelings, but when things go down fast, that may be all you have.
I also understand if you are seeing a lot of people come through with a bit too much of a cavalier attitude that you want them to dial that down a bit but I still think that in the moment fear is what is going to be the defensive trigger, at least for the average person.
Open to learning though...

 

[Selfpreservation]

Your term is not defined in the law the way you think it is.

Your training is not what you think it is.

 

[Fargo]

Your training is not what you think it is.

5 guys with Indiana law licenses have told you you’re wrong, including multiple guys who have prosecuted and defended. Carry on.