Fire Formed Brass

[VIETVET191]

I recently started to load paper patched bullets. I have two rifles(Mauser 71 & 71/84) that were designed to fire that type of bullet so I thought I would give it a try. After doing a little research on the subject, I found there are several approaches to the same end. They all have their points and the people who do them are happy with the results.
Now for the question. One system that I like the sound of uses fire formed brass that is never resized. The bullet is sized to the bore and then patched to a snug fit to the neck of the brass. If the brass is never resized, is there a need to ever anneal the brass? I know the need for annealing is the result of reworking the brass. If the brass is never reworked, how long can I expect the brass to last? Theoretically, it should last forever assuming moderate loads are used.
All of my research indicates this type of bullet is much more accurate, so I would also like to use it in my newer rifles(keeping in mind my newest rifle was manufactured in 1918).
Any thoughts on the subject?

 

[bstewrat3]

If the brass doesn't get worked as it would being sized repeatedly you should not have to worry about annealing. If the brass fits the chamber well and doesn't get moved between rifles it should last indefinitely. I talked to a guy shooting a 32-40 Scheutzen rifle at Willow Slough about 20 years ago. He didn't seat the cast bullet in the case but inserted it directly in the bore and then put the charged formfit case in the chamber and he claimed to use only 10 pieces of brass and had been using the same cases for over 30 years.

 

[Mgderf]

The idea of fire-forming brass for a particular bore is of interest to me. I have several rifles in different calibers that are bolt or single (break) actions.
In particular, I have a brand new H&R Handi-Rifle in .45/70govt, and another Handi-Rifle in .500S&W.
Both could benefit from this process, though I have a feeling the .45/70 brass will last a bit longer than the .500S&W.

 

[17 squirrel]

If it was my brass I would still anneal it, say every third or fourth reload. When you fire it the brass will still expand and contract and still get work hardened.
Annealing will keep your brass at a more even keel within its own structure.
It will stay more elastic and most likely give you a better service life.
It will be interesting to see how your brass keeps the original ID or if it constantly changes and you have to keep chasing with a different thickness of paper or more or less wraps around the bullet.

Have you checked in with the guys on Castboolits and some of the BPCR forums ??

 

[Leadeye]

Just bought a Winchester 1894 32-40 so I'll be watching this thread for a while.

 

[17 squirrel]

Leadeye....

I'd like to see you wrap those little pills with paper papa`son.

Kidding aside, do you cast ?????

Your only looking at 900 to 1100 fps and with that a bullet cast from WW and maybe a gas check along with a good black powder lube and you are in business.

 

[VIETVET191]

Yes, I do cast my bullets. I'm using pure lead for the '71 & "71/84 with BP. For the newer rifles I'm using WW with smokeless. As for the lube, I use my own formula of one part beeswax to one part lard. I know it sounds weird, but it seems to work very well with BP.

 

[17 squirrel]

All that matters is that it lubes the entire bore.
I just think that without at least neck sizing, you will have a ever changing neck tension and you will be chasing your tail with needing different bullet diameters and paper thickness's to keep being consistent.

I would read alot about loading 150 years ago. The wheel have been invented and the pathway is tried and true. Sometimes its fun to reinvent the wheel, but that's gennerally a waste of time.

But sometimes the chase is time well spent..maybe not to anyone but yourself.

 

[OutdoorDad]

If it was my brass I would still anneal it, say every third or fourth reload. When you fire it the brass will still expand and contract and still get work hardened.
Annealing will keep your brass at a more even keel within its own structure.
It will stay more elastic and most likely give you a better service life.
It will be interesting to see how your brass keeps the original ID or if it constantly changes and you have to keep chasing with a different thickness of paper or more or less wraps around the bullet.

Have you checked in with the guys on Castboolits and some of the BPCR forums ??

You're far more experienced in reloading than I.

And a bazzilion times more experienced in rifle brass.

Where does the work hardening occur? If the brass is fire formed in that chamber, wouldn't the lengthening from firing be reduced? Or is that still going to creep longer and need trimming?

I've seen annealing on military brass. But what is it trying to do? I always assumed it was there to 'harden' the shoulder???

 

[17 squirrel]

When brass is fired in a chamber it expands rapidly and contracts rapidly, it gennerally does not contract back to its original performing size.

You can see this buy sliding a bullet back into a fired case. In most cases a bullet will slide or can be pushed easily back into the case.

That's why we neck size or full lenght size when we reload.
When most metals are expanded, contracted , twisted ,flexed, squished and so on it work hardens the metal. It then needs to be brought up to a certain temperature ( temp is determined by metal ) and it restructures the grain of the metal and softens it.
By repeatedly firing a brass cartridge it expands and contracts everytime, and that work hardens it.
When brass is formed in the factory's it has been annealed more than once during the forming processed.
Have you ever fired a cartridge that the neck split on ?
If yes, most likely the brass was hard and split instead of expanding and contracting.


I'm just touching the edges of this conversation, it can go on forever. Lol.

 

[Yeah]

If the brass is never resized, is there a need to ever anneal the brass?

There is never a need to anneal the brass regardless, if the sizing operation is focused on moving as little brass as necessary.

FYI, they now make better jackets than paper.

 

[VIETVET191]

Yeah, I agree there are much better jackets than paper today. There is much better powder than black powder, but they still manufacture it for a reason. People like to shoot black powder in rifles designed and manufactured to shoot black powder. As to the effect of a paper patched bullet, one only has to examine the number of American Bison that fell under a paper patched bullet.
My question concerned the necessity for annealing fire formed brass used in the same rifle. From what I gathered of the responses to my question, once the brass is fired, the minute expansion and contraction of the brass during repeated firing will have little or no effect on the brittleness of the brass. Keeping in mind this is not a "cold process" but done under the heat of the burning powder.
My thanks to all who responded, it was helpful. As soon as the weather is a little more agreeable, I'll do some range experimenting and see what happens.

 

[17 squirrel]

How do you expect to keep the neck tension on the bullet when each time you fire that same piece of brass the neck will expand more and more with each fireing ??????????? With each firing you will loose more and more the ability to hold bullets in the case.
It will quickly get to the point of the chamber will not allow it to expand when fired, if you keep up with a larger bullet or paper patch..
When you reach the point of brass being fired and not being able to expand, you might be entering the danger zone..
Maybe the paper patch will allow you to shoot with no issues.
I still would size the neck of the case just to keep it under tension and more uniform.

Good luck, please post your results.