Flag burning and bans on burning

[downzero]

Cliffnotes version:

Guy burns Mexican flag in the street in protest of what he perceives is Senate action for "amnesty." He is arrested based upon a ban on burning (almost) anything in the city without a permit. He sues and says that the arrest violates his first amendment rights. The court disagrees, finding that the application of the law doesn't violate the flag burner's rights.

The standard for applying a law like this (content and viewpoint -neutral, legitimately enacted for purposes otherwise unrelated to speech, etc., is different than if it were enacted merely to squelch speech.

Although I am a first amendment absolutist, it appears that the court got this one right.

I am posting this because we had a discussion about this in some thread recently.

Case is available here:
http://ia360709.us.archive.org/11/items/gov.uscourts.txwd.370914/gov.uscourts.txwd.370914.47.0.pdf

 

[E5RANGER375]

and if the guy had been an illegal mexican burning an American flag, they would'nt have arrested him. instead they would give him welfare and a place to live his illegal life here in the U.S.

 

[Son of Liberty]

and if the guy had been an illegal mexican burning an American flag, they would'nt have arrested him. instead they would give him welfare and a place to live his illegal life here in the U.S.

Dont know about the welfare, cause i believe most illegals work hard, instead of taking handouts, but Im sure there are some taking advantage.

But I definitely believe that nothing would happen to an illegal who burned the American flag. Nothing should happen to anyone for burning any flag, especially an American citizen, burning another countries flag. WTF

 

[mrjarrell]

Hopefully the guy wins on appeal and the ruling gets shoved back in the judges face. Free speech should always be protected.

 

[MinuteMan47]

Dont know about the welfare, cause i believe most illegals work hard, instead of taking handouts, but Im sure there are some taking advantage.

What!?! Illegals work hard....really?! So do pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, drug smugglers, theives, crooks, and con artists....am I forgetting anything else?!

 

[ATM]

What!?! Illegals work hard....really?! So do pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, drug smugglers, theives, crooks, and con artists....am I forgetting anything else?!

Moderators?

 

[OAK]

Moderators?

No money in that....

 

[Colt556]

 

[MinuteMan47]

Dont know about the welfare, cause i believe most illegals work hard, instead of taking handouts, but Im sure there are some taking advantage.

But I definitely believe that nothing would happen to an illegal who burned the American flag. Nothing should happen to anyone for burning any flag, especially an American citizen, burning another countries flag. WTF

This has to be the absolute worst post I have EVER read. Full of FAIL. This is the only situation where a hyphen is allowed in the word American, and it looks like this UN-American!

 

[Fletch]

This has to be the absolute worst post I have EVER read. Full of FAIL. This is the only situation where a hyphen is allowed in the word American, and it looks like this UN-American!

That's one opinion.

 

[MinuteMan47]

That's one opinion.

I'm all ears...

 

[downzero]

Hopefully the guy wins on appeal and the ruling gets shoved back in the judges face. Free speech should always be protected.

I would agree if the reason for the ban was the viewpoint, but it isn't. They have a ban on burning anything in the city. It just so happens that at this time, it was applied to this speech.

If, however, it was applied arbitrarily, I'd support your conclusion.

 

[lashicoN]

Wow, I actually agree with the judge this time.

I'm all for freedom, most of you know this by now. I love the 1st Amendment just as much as I love the 2nd or 3rd, 4th, etc.

But when you are using fire to exercise your freedom of speech or expression, then we run into that whole mess of "you should be able to do anything you want until you harm others" and you could easily harm other with fire.

Obviously burning a flag in a crowded building with few exits should be illegal, even if you are protesting. The first Amendment doesn't give me the right to go on a congressional rampage to express how I currently feel about congress.

Our rights as humans end when they can be used to physically hurt others, and a flaming flag is no joke...but to play devil's advocate with myself here, I believe he was outside...so there might not have been a huge possibility of him harming others with the burning flag.

 

[lashicoN]

What!?! Illegals work hard....really?! So do pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, drug smugglers, theives, crooks, and con artists....am I forgetting anything else?!

People who manufacture beer and other alcohol also work hard, this was also once illegal.

Just because something is banned by our government, doesn't typically make that person a bad person. It just makes them a criminal because the government says so.

Prostitutes, drug dealers, and drug smugglers are not necessarily bad people, they are just criminals. John Hancock was a smuggler, after all.

Pimps are as bad as lawyers and agents, but still considered a criminal.

Thieves, crooks, and con artists usually tend to be both criminals and bad people.

Being a bad person or a criminal usually has nothing to do with how hard you work, so I fail to see the point here.

 

[Son of Liberty]

This has to be the absolute worst post I have EVER read. Full of FAIL. This is the only situation where a hyphen is allowed in the word American, and it looks like this UN-American!

You obiviously don't like freedom and would prefer a dictatorship.

In addition don't make assumptions of me, when you know nothing about me.

Why is it that some people of the country seem to believe that they can tell someone else they are un-american?? I would say the person who is against someone expressing their free speech rights, including burning a flag is the one being un american.

 

[Fletch]

You obiviously don't like freedom and would prefer a dictatorship.

Fortunately, there are quite a few to choose from.

 

[DragonGunner]

Well...just a thought...if those who can lawfully burn the flag in public in protest of this country....then at least people would know who hates America....on the other hand....it should then be perfectly lawful to set them on fire in protest....as a form of freedom of speech. Now if a politcian would run on that...

 

[MinuteMan47]

People who manufacture beer and other alcohol also work hard, this was also once illegal.

Just because something is banned by our government, doesn't typically make that person a bad person. It just makes them a criminal because the government says so.

Prostitutes, drug dealers, and drug smugglers are not necessarily bad people, they are just criminals. John Hancock was a smuggler, after all.

Pimps are as bad as lawyers and agents, but still considered a criminal.

Thieves, crooks, and con artists usually tend to be both criminals and bad people.

Being a bad person or a criminal usually has nothing to do with how hard you work, so I fail to see the point here.

You are right, during the prohibition Al Capone bootlegged alcohol and made lots of cash, eventually our government could only arrest him on 'tax evasion'. Really he would be no different from the modern day Anheuser Busch, but they pay taxes.

The point I was trying to make was the fact that these ILLEGALS, are coming here ILLEGALLY. They ARE NOT documented and the American people are footing the bill for their actions. It doesn't matter how hard they work when WE still have to help pay for their welfare, food stamps..etc.. A dead horse issue I suppose.

You obiviously don't like freedom and would prefer a dictatorship.

In addition don't make assumptions of me, when you know nothing about me.

Why is it that some people of the country seem to believe that they can tell someone else they are un-american?? I would say the person who is against someone expressing their free speech rights, including burning a flag is the one being un american.

As far as the comment you made about there being no punishment for anyone who burns any flag. You do as you please. But, this is truly a slap in the face to AMERICA.

We can disagree on everything, we can disagree with our government and it could be overthrown and a new government instated, but one thing will always be true....WE ARE STILL AMERICANS. The American flag is something sacred to the LAND that we live on. Take all of the people and views away from our country and it is still AMERICA. The flag is a symbol of our FREEDOM.

The American government is a seperate entity from AMERICA. As I said, if we do not like our government then it is our duty to create a new form of government. To me your comment seemed as if you wanted to just open our borders and create an entirely new country with new borders. Maybe you are one of those guys who wants the NEW WORLD ORDER? A One World Government??? If that happened then the American flag would mean squat.

 

[lashicoN]

As far as the comment you made about there being no punishment for anyone who burns any flag. You do as you please. But, this is truly a slap in the face to AMERICA.

This is how I look at it. Maybe it will sway you over to our side.

What is more a slap to America's face? Burning the flag or blotting out the First Amendment?

None of us here burn flags. I don't endorse it. I couldn't do it. But I prefer my rights over everything else, even our flag. When it becomes illegal to burn our flag, our flag no longer represents the free nation we are supposed to be. People can burn flags in free nations.

For me this isn't a right or wrong issue. It's a rights or no rights issue.

 

[ATM]

The flag is a symbol of our FREEDOM

...even the freedom to burn it (where general burning is not prohibited by local statute. )

Freedom allows for many levels of poor etiquette. It must.

*I don't condone it either*