For non-firearms self-defense for women: Pepper Spray vs. Stun Gun

[Sylvain]

Also I forgot if Taser guns require a LTCH to carry ... The Indiana Code makes a distinction between "stun guns" and "taser".

 

[Sylvain]

This. My department uses the x2 which offers us a follow up shot if the first one doesn't work. We rrun a 50 percent success rate. The failures are mostly due to baggy clothing and the probes not being able to penetrate. I certainly wouldn't trust my life to a 50 percent success rate.

It's something Taser International doesn't advertise.
They always make it sound like their weapon works 100% of the time.
I even seen a video of a guy being shot with a Taser, both probes went in (he was shirtless) and he just removed one and walked away.


That thing doesn't always work, it's why when you see cops holding one pointed at a suspect you always see a dozen of other cops around with firearms in case it fails.

 

[tatertot]

It's something Taser International doesn't advertise.
They always make it sound like their weapon works 100% of the time.
I even seen a video of a guy being shot with a Taser, both probes went in (he was shirtless) and he just removed one and walked away.


That thing doesn't always work, it's why when you see cops holding one pointed at a suspect you always see a dozen of other cops around with firearms in case it fails.

No it certainly doesn't. I've had to beat it into my guys heads that the taser isn't a cure all, and fails as often as it works.

 

[bwframe]

Shave the muggers right off of you.

[video=youtube;reeAaarG55g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reeAaarG55g[/video]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Pepper spray is a compliance tool, it is not a weapon. It's for when someone is doing something you don't want them to do but no attack is imminent. "Stop following me or I'll spray you" scenario, not active aggression.

1) Reduced effect on drunks or those who are otherwise impaired
2) Pain compliance can be pushed through by a dedicated attacker
3) "Lag time" between being hit and taking effect.
4) If your attacker grapples you, you are now both going to "enjoy" the effects.
5) Almost no one practices with it, you can miss.
6) Almost no one carries it in a manner where it can be accessed quickly enough to matter
7) People who do use it tend to use it too late in the encounter.

Stun guns suck. Tasers suck less, but the cost, LTCH requirement, one shot only, and the fact practice cartridges are expensive also makes it less than ideal.

Situational awareness, conflict avoidance, and unarmed fighting skills are what I'd work on, plus getting to the point of firearm carry.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Pepper spray is a compliance tool, it is not a weapon. It's for when someone is doing something you don't want them to do but no attack is imminent. "Stop following me or I'll spray you" scenario, not active aggression.

1) Reduced effect on drunks or those who are otherwise impaired
2) Pain compliance can be pushed through by a dedicated attacker
3) "Lag time" between being hit and taking effect.
4) If your attacker grapples you, you are now both going to "enjoy" the effects.
5) Almost no one practices with it, you can miss.
6) Almost no one carries it in a manner where it can be accessed quickly enough to matter
7) People who do use it tend to use it too late in the encounter.

Stun guns suck. Tasers suck less, but the cost, LTCH requirement, one shot only, and the fact practice cartridges are expensive also makes it less than ideal.

Situational awareness, conflict avoidance, and unarmed fighting skills are what I'd work on, plus getting to the point of firearm carry.

Thanks Denny...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

For spray: Is there a difference between Oleoresin Capsicum and capsaicinoid? Is there a certain percentage to stay above? It looks like it goes anywhere from .2%-10%.

For tasers: Is there a threshold of voltage to stay above?

Capsicum is one of a variety of the capsaicinoid family. So there may or may not be a difference. And from my understanding don't rely on the % listed for effectiveness.
Sabre as listed above is a good one, I've also heard very good things about fox labs and freeze +p. I believe the last two are the most common in use by LEOs.

For stun guns/tasers see below.

Also, am I weird for never having been tased/stunned? Are you guys getting enjoyment out of this or just monetary/rep benefits like Fargo???

Perhaps just have a better class of friends? That's how I got my experiences.

Also I forgot if Taser guns require a LTCH to carry ... The Indiana Code makes a distinction between "stun guns" and "taser".

Yep. I was going to point that out. But you forgot one, electronic stun weapons. Those and tasers both require a LTCH to carry.
Here are the definitions.

IC 35-47-8-1
"Electronic stun weapon" defined
Sec. 1. As used in this chapter, "electronic stun weapon" means
any mechanism that is:
(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of
charge that exceeds the equivalency of a five (5) milliamp sixty
(60) hertz shock; and
(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-2
"Stun gun" defined
Sec. 2. As used in this chapter, "stun gun" means any mechanism
that is:
(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of
charge that equals or does not exceed the equivalency of a five
(5) milliamp sixty (60) hertz shock; and
(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-3
"Taser" defined
Sec. 3. As used in this chapter, "taser" means any mechanism that
is:
(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of
charge or shock through the use of a projectile; and
(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-4
Applicability of handgun provisions
Sec. 4. IC 35-47-2 applies to an electronic stun weapon or taser.

 

[Sylvain]

Shave the muggers right off of you.

[video=youtube;reeAaarG55g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reeAaarG55g[/video]

I need that! A French-American knife, with a fancy French name.

I saw a video of Fred Perrin talking about this collaboration a while back.

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;Vjz7gbM9rPs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjz7gbM9rPs[/video]

[video=youtube;cB-N7Sc9Bpw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB-N7Sc9Bpw[/video]

 

[Sylvain]

That's the original Fred Perrin design with the straight blade that Mr.Emerson is talking about in the video.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

[video=youtube;Vjz7gbM9rPs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjz7gbM9rPs[/video]

[video=youtube;cB-N7Sc9Bpw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB-N7Sc9Bpw[/video]

I'd enjoy seeing the comb employed against a physically superior attacker (as a female victim is likely to face) at real speeds. Particularly by someone with no or minimal unarmed fighting training, which is the person who will be carrying a comb for self defense.

 

[Sylvain]

I'd enjoy seeing the comb employed against a physically superior attacker (as a female victim is likely to face) at real speeds. Particularly by someone with no or minimal unarmed fighting training, which is the person who will be carrying a comb for self defense.

Also this guy clearly doesn't need a comb, and he's already holding it in his hand ... not looking for it in his purse like a woman would do in case she was attacked by surprise.

Looks like a poor defensive option.

 

[OakRiver]

Just throwing out another option that no one else has mentioned; collapsible baton

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I'd enjoy seeing the comb employed against a physically superior attacker (as a female victim is likely to face) at real speeds. Particularly by someone with no or minimal unarmed fighting training, which is the person who will be carrying a comb for self defense.

His son comes on at about 3:45 supposedly at full speed an without him overreacting...

Looks like a poor defensive option.

Agreed, but probably better than nothing.

 

[CraigAPS]

Just throwing out another option that no one else has mentioned; collapsible baton

Hmmm. I hadn't considered that, which is odd considering I own one. It seems like it could be a good option: works every time (one can connect with it), not as dangerous to the wielder (unless taken away), relatively inexpensive (compared to $400-1500 for a taster + LTCH).
What do others think about a combination of OC spray and collapsible baton? Spray to deter, baton if spray doesn't affect attacker/can't get away.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

His son comes on at about 3:45 supposedly at full speed an without him overreacting...

And you don't suppose he would smash the kid in the face after getting his forearm "ripped" if it was a legitimate fight, or even a full speed training drill? That a determined attacker is really going to be deterred by that? Maybe the old dude from Family Guy if taken by surprise and the kid can run faster than the perv...but a punch to the nuts would probably be better than a comb to the elbow.

Sorry, no. This is the same advise as the "use your keys like brass knuckles in the parking garage" BS. I'd rather have a stapler in a sock.

Here's the problem. Jane reads this mess. She doesn't know what she doesn't know. She takes the advice believing it will work as demonstrated. Bad things happen, Jane uses her ninja comb and it has zero effect...and she's now not only stressed by an attack but her mind is dealing with a surprise of her attack being ineffective.

For reference, I've had self defense stabbings with real knives where the attacker kept going after suffering some pretty nasty injuries. The pain response that this guy is showing is probably real...in a static environment with no flight/fight reaction going on in the body. Slashing injuries are pain compliance and when the body is flooded with "fight" pain is numbed. Until their blood pressure drops enough or someone calls their conscious attention to the bleeding, people often don't realize they've been stabbed. I'd say roughly half of stabbing victims who didn't see the blade didn't realize they were stabbed at first, thinking they were simply punched and then noticed bleeding later. This is even more prominent with drunks, emotionally involved combatants, etc.

My sergeant had one about a month ago where the aggressor was stabbed to nearly fatal levels and continued to close with the victim, getting cut again, and then backing off, until witnesses finally got his attention to look at his own abdomen where he was pouring blood. He then ran and collapsed shortly thereafter. The guy's knife was mostly concealed in his fist and the attacker thought he was being punched. I was interested in this because I was curious as to what the prosecutor would decide in a stabbing vs fist self defense claim, but the cut guy was unwilling to cooperate with the investigation so the question was never resolved.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hmmm. I hadn't considered that, which is odd considering I own one. It seems like it could be a good option: works every time (one can connect with it), not as dangerous to the wielder (unless taken away), relatively inexpensive (compared to $400-1500 for a taster + LTCH).
What do others think about a combination of OC spray and collapsible baton? Spray to deter, baton if spray doesn't affect attacker/can't get away.

Where is the person going to carry them? Will they train with either?

 

[chezuki]

Where is the person going to carry them? Will they train with either?

A batman style utility belt obviously.

 

[chezuki]

I'll just leave this here...

[video=youtube_share;nQpwFdHrMmc]http://youtu.be/nQpwFdHrMmc[/video]

 

[Timjoebillybob]

And you don't suppose he would smash the kid in the face after getting his forearm "ripped" if it was a legitimate fight, or even a full speed training drill? That a determined attacker is really going to be deterred by that? Maybe the old dude from Family Guy if taken by surprise and the kid can run faster than the perv...but a punch to the nuts would probably be better than a comb to the elbow.

Sorry, no. This is the same advise as the "use your keys like brass knuckles in the parking garage" BS. I'd rather have a stapler in a sock.

Sorry I don't do purple. I agree with you completely. About the only possible use would be possibly distraction while the kid gets in the nut shot.

Where is the person going to carry them? Will they train with either?

Good questions.