Force on Force: Got Ideas?

[thatgtrguy]

to answer the OP.

I work at a church. One of the favorite targets of spree killers. lots of unarmed people. Big space. Typically a gun free zone.

Our big concern is someone barging in the sanctuary and opening fire and/or taking hostages. We are a pretty big church so we do have "high value targets". A lot of times when people feel wronged by a church they'll fixate on the senior pastor and the worship leader as they are the two most visible faces of the church.

Big room lots of people. No chance of keeping the panic to a minimum (especially if the bad guy(s) come in shooting)

 

[THard6]

to answer the OP.

I work at a church. One of the favorite targets of spree killers. lots of unarmed people. Big space. Typically a gun free zone.

Our big concern is someone barging in the sanctuary and opening fire and/or taking hostages. We are a pretty big church so we do have "high value targets". A lot of times when people feel wronged by a church they'll fixate on the senior pastor and the worship leader as they are the two most visible faces of the church.

Big room lots of people. No chance of keeping the panic to a minimum (especially if the bad guy(s) come in shooting)

does your church have it's one security team?
I go to a rather large church on the southside of indianapolis
and they have a team of people that CC everytime we are in church, and I don't think I ever see them sitting in the same exact seat.
If your church doesn't have one already you may consider talking to you pastor and try to organize yourself a little group.
I don't go to church without carrying

 

[thatgtrguy]

does your church have it's one security team?
I go to a rather large church on the southside of indianapolis
and they have a team of people that CC everytime we are in church, and I don't think I ever see them sitting in the same exact seat.
If your church doesn't have one already you may consider talking to you pastor and try to organize yourself a little group.
I don't go to church without carrying

Yes we do have a security team. As well as uniformed LEOs on site during services. Off duty LEOs are also carrying as well as a few staff members.

 

[jdhaines]

THIS IS WHAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!

You can not seriously simulate a carjacking scenario and act it out as if you were in serious one. If you and your friends are standing around knowing you're about to get carjacked.. you're already prepared and know what is about to happen.. to me that is an absolut waste of time.
Go take a class and let them catch you off guard.. you'll understand what i'm saying, it really does throw you for a loop..

I would again disagree (sorry man) and say that going through the process of a "car jacking" where someone has weapons (simulated weapons) and is using force to try and hurt you is absolutely something worth going through. Simply knowing it is going to happen isn't enough for you to "win." There are lots of decisions to be made and to work through.

• Under what circumstances would you choose to comply and give him your car. (mindset labs can help here)
• What is the best time to go "hands on", muzzle avert, and fight?
• Is there a time to draw your gun?
• How does your method of carry (appendix vs strong side) affect your ability to access your weapon?
• How does it ruin all your plans if you forget your seatbelt is on?
• How can you use verbal skills and movement to distract from a weapon draw?
• How do I fight inside a car? (Shivworks deals with this specifically)
• Under what circumstances would you simply smash on the skinny pedal on the right?
• What does it feel like to be hit, punched, fake stabbed, and smashed when you're trapped in a seat belt in a car.
• Run the scenario as if you have a kid in the back seat, and then again if you are by yourself

This is just a short list I thought of quickly. Anyone with some FoF could do a similar list and may come up with the same things to work or perhaps completely different ones.

Put another way...if a grappler tells you "I'm going to take you down, advance position, and choke you." Simply knowing its going to happen isn't going to change the outcome. This isn't Schrodinger's wrestler. You have to train against someone who is opposing you plain and simple. Force on force is one way to train that. Being surprised at the situation is only one small piece of the puzzle. Getting to a class that specializes in surprising you and making you hit decisions in an adrenal state is awesome...but to think that is the only way to train for real situations would be a massive mistake.

 

[cedartop]

Very good post Josh.

 

[the1kidd03]

I would again disagree (sorry man) and say that going through the process of a "car jacking" where someone has weapons (simulated weapons) and is using force to try and hurt you is absolutely something worth going through. Simply knowing it is going to happen isn't enough for you to "win." There are lots of decisions to be made and to work through.

• Under what circumstances would you choose to comply and give him your car. (mindset labs can help here)
• What is the best time to go "hands on", muzzle avert, and fight?
• Is there a time to draw your gun?
• How does your method of carry (appendix vs strong side) affect your ability to access your weapon?
• How does it ruin all your plans if you forget your seatbelt is on?
• How can you use verbal skills and movement to distract from a weapon draw?
• How do I fight inside a car? (Shivworks deals with this specifically)
• Under what circumstances would you simply smash on the skinny pedal on the right?
• What does it feel like to be hit, punched, fake stabbed, and smashed when you're trapped in a seat belt in a car.
• Run the scenario as if you have a kid in the back seat, and then again if you are by yourself

This is just a short list I thought of quickly. Anyone with some FoF could do a similar list and may come up with the same things to work or perhaps completely different ones.

Put another way...if a grappler tells you "I'm going to take you down, advance position, and choke you." Simply knowing its going to happen isn't going to change the outcome. This isn't Schrodinger's wrestler. You have to train against someone who is opposing you plain and simple. Force on force is one way to train that. Being surprised at the situation is only one small piece of the puzzle. Getting to a class that specializes in surprising you and making you hit decisions in an adrenal state is awesome...but to think that is the only way to train for real situations would be a massive mistake.

Correction, it's one BIG piece of the puzzle.

All of the skills in the world aren't going to do you any good if caught off guard and instanteously taken out of the fight whether it be traumatic wound, knocked unconscious, etc. FOF is great at testing and honing skills, decisions making, and tactics. ALL of which rely on your ABILITY to use them.

I've been in a few of the situations you've described. Training is indeed a puzzle. Don't skate by on less training in ANY one category. If one is serious enough about their defense to seek training, then it needs to be well rounded. Assuming you will NOT be caught off guard can likely be the biggest mistake of your life.

The only thing that saved me in one instance is that my head is harder than most knuckles. Had I not already built up some "resilience" to cranial strikes, I might not be posting this. Your survival in dangerous situations depends on your ability to recognize threats. If you can do this before they become an actual danger, you're simply preparing yourself and increasing your odds. If you can't or don't do this, then you are already at a disadvantage. You have to be ABLE to make a decision for it to matter. Often times criminals look for the opportunity to strike when you're not paying attention.

 

[esrice]

There is a lot more to FoF than simply getting some airsoft guns and 5 of your closest friends together. I'll even go as far as to say that doing it incorrectly can be very dangerous.

The cheap route would be to take some FoF classes with a reputable trainer, like Mindset Laboratory. They provide the all guns, all the safety gear, all the roleplayers, and, most importantly, all the knowledge.

A more expensive route would be to provide all that yourself and take time to gain the necessary knowledge of what it is you're trying to accomplish. If that still sounds interesting, give this book a read first: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Training-Speed-Life-Vol-Definitive/dp/0976199408]Training at the Speed of Life, Vol. 1: The Definitive Textbook for Police and Military Reality Based Training: Kenneth R. Murray: 9780976199403: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

 

[jdhaines]

Correction, it's one BIG piece of the puzzle.

I still don't think so and don't see your response as a correction at all. You can't practice to be surprised or not surprised. If you are surprised that will affect your ability to fight back. If you see it coming you'll have more time and ability to fight back with a more ideal response.

Preaching situational awareness is great, but that isn't what you would train with a small group. I'll go back to grappling only because it's more straightforward than thinking of a complex scenario. I could be tackled without seeing it coming, or I could be tackled after I saw the guy. If I saw it coming, maybe I could use some sort of defense against it. If I didn't see it coming, I'm going to get tackled period. That surprise only lasts an instant and now I need to deal with the situation. If I've been in that position (tackled on the ground) many times, I'll have a better chance of dealing with it than if I haven't trained it. Simply saying "see it coming" is a dishonest way to deal with a problem. It's taking the easy way out. Don't let yourself fall into that trap.

In a training group you can practice what to do when put in those bad positions. Understanding things like weapon access, position, escape, etc. That's where the skills are developed. Skills don't matter in that split second where you are initially attacked. Your skills help you deal with it once you understand what happened.

I don't want to speak for Shay or anyone else, but I hope he would agree with the idea that his classes teach you the ideas behind FoF and work as an audit of your current skill level. I took his class, learned my areas of weakness, and I'm now working skills. I'm getting my verbal, movement, gun, knife, hand-to-hand, etc to a higher level. At some point in the future I'll take another scenario day with him and reassess. At that point I'll make a new list of weaknesses and continue the cycle over again. Could I end up in one of his scenarios and be surprised? Of course! But my skills that I've worked on in our training group should help me to overcome the situation and have a better chance of survival.

Talking about surprise or no surprise is simply missing the forest for the trees. Not training because you can't adequately mimic full adrenaline dump or full surprise reaction is a common way for people to avoid training and feel better about themselves in the process. Be honest about the problems, be honest about your skill levels, and do the real work to get better. It's not always fun and it's certainly not easy but it's the only way to be assured you have the best chance of winning a real confrontation.

 

[WETSU]

Airsoft is a great training tool. I have used it for years in FoF, in classes, and independent training, or as a test lab for concepts and ideas. I have used it with mid sized police departments.

The only downside is that airsoft breaks when going hands on. I have not found an airsoft pistol that will hold up to grappling. Sims and UTMs do however. But you can work 90% of those problems with a bluegun.

For the OP, ideas:

Alter the environment. Low light, no light, a few candles, fire, smoke/fogger, strobelights, loud music and lights like a club.

Start out wounded. Take a direct hit to the support hand and start fighting. Wear muddy, or blood smeared goggles. Start on your back.

Two on one, panhandlers, really pressing you. In your space. How do you escalate?

Carjacking. Hell yes. Fight INSIDE the car.

Hostage.

Suicidal person with a gun

Fast clearing. Slow clearing.

Clear odd places. A houseboat. A trailer. A church. An office. A barn. A warehouse.

Good luck!

 

[the1kidd03]

I still don't think so and don't see your response as a correction at all. You can't practice to be surprised or not surprised. If you are surprised that will affect your ability to fight back. If you see it coming you'll have more time and ability to fight back with a more ideal response.

Preaching situational awareness is great, but that isn't what you would train with a small group. I'll go back to grappling only because it's more straightforward than thinking of a complex scenario. I could be tackled without seeing it coming, or I could be tackled after I saw the guy. If I saw it coming, maybe I could use some sort of defense against it. If I didn't see it coming, I'm going to get tackled period. That surprise only lasts an instant and now I need to deal with the situation. If I've been in that position (tackled on the ground) many times, I'll have a better chance of dealing with it than if I haven't trained it. Simply saying "see it coming" is a dishonest way to deal with a problem. It's taking the easy way out. Don't let yourself fall into that trap.

In a training group you can practice what to do when put in those bad positions. Understanding things like weapon access, position, escape, etc. That's where the skills are developed. Skills don't matter in that split second where you are initially attacked. Your skills help you deal with it once you understand what happened.

I don't want to speak for Shay or anyone else, but I hope he would agree with the idea that his classes teach you the ideas behind FoF and work as an audit of your current skill level. I took his class, learned my areas of weakness, and I'm now working skills. I'm getting my verbal, movement, gun, knife, hand-to-hand, etc to a higher level. At some point in the future I'll take another scenario day with him and reassess. At that point I'll make a new list of weaknesses and continue the cycle over again. Could I end up in one of his scenarios and be surprised? Of course! But my skills that I've worked on in our training group should help me to overcome the situation and have a better chance of survival.

Talking about surprise or no surprise is simply missing the forest for the trees. Not training because you can't adequately mimic full adrenaline dump or full surprise reaction is a common way for people to avoid training and feel better about themselves in the process. Be honest about the problems, be honest about your skill levels, and do the real work to get better. It's not always fun and it's certainly not easy but it's the only way to be assured you have the best chance of winning a real confrontation.

Simply put;

to believe that your training (regardless of what it is) will make you more able to survive a situation is to RELY on the ASSUMPTION that you have NOT been caught off guard AND the assumption that if you ARE caught off guard you'll still be able to and coherent enough to do anything.

If that assumption turns out to be false, which cannot be predicted, then all you can do is HOPE your attacker isn't armed or otherwise capable of and WILLING to incapacitate you. IME, they are often more than willing. Whether or not they are armed and/or ABLE to incapacitate you is nothing more than chance/luck at that point.

[I was going to reply with a long detailed response detailing differences, semantics, etc. but the above statements clearly identify the point adequately.]

 

[the1kidd03]

Airsoft is a great training tool. I have used it for years in FoF, in classes, and independent training, or as a test lab for concepts and ideas. I have used it with mid sized police departments.

The only downside is that airsoft breaks when going hands on. I have not found an airsoft pistol that will hold up to grappling. Sims and UTMs do however. But you can work 90% of those problems with a bluegun.

For the OP, ideas:

Alter the environment. Low light, no light, a few candles, fire, smoke/fogger, strobelights, loud music and lights like a club.

Start out wounded. Take a direct hit to the support hand and start fighting. Wear muddy, or blood smeared goggles. Start on your back.

Two on one, panhandlers, really pressing you. In your space. How do you escalate?

Carjacking. Hell yes. Fight INSIDE the car.

Hostage.

Suicidal person with a gun

Fast clearing. Slow clearing.

Clear odd places. A houseboat. A trailer. A church. An office. A barn. A warehouse.

Good luck!

Excellent suggestions for you to use here OP. Start with those that you feel are more likely to come your way and try to throw in as many of the "unexpecteds" as possible (injuries, innocent house mates, element of surprise, etc.).

 

[WETSU]

Sparring isn't a real fight. I know nobody is going to get seriously hurt, but it certainly has value to me for working my skills.

 

[jdhaines]

Simply put;

to believe that your training (regardless of what it is) will make you more able to survive a situation is to RELY on the ASSUMPTION that you have NOT been caught off guard AND the assumption that if you ARE caught off guard you'll still be able to and coherent enough to do anything.

If that assumption turns out to be false, which cannot be predicted, then all you can do is HOPE your attacker isn't armed or otherwise capable of and WILLING to incapacitate you. IME, they are often more than willing. Whether or not they are armed and/or ABLE to incapacitate you is nothing more than chance/luck at that point.

[I was going to reply with a long detailed response detailing differences, semantics, etc. but the above statements clearly identify the point adequately.]

Ok, I get your point. But then what? Lets agree you can't control if you're knocked out unexpectedly. For every other situation you may encounter your training can and will help so lets work on that.

I understand what you're saying, but can't figure out why you are trying to so hard to make it clear? If you get bashed in the head with a baseball bat and are knocked out you have no control over what happens. If you are semi-coherent maybe some small amount of your training can mitigate some damage. If you're coherent but injured, your training can help you to take as little damage as possible and do as much damage as possible to your assailant.

Sparring isn't a real fight. I know nobody is going to get seriously hurt, but it certainly has value to me for working my skills.

+1

 

[Aaron1776]

Airsoft is a great training tool. I have used it for years in FoF, in classes, and independent training, or as a test lab for concepts and ideas. I have used it with mid sized police departments.

The only downside is that airsoft breaks when going hands on. I have not found an airsoft pistol that will hold up to grappling. Sims and UTMs do however. But you can work 90% of those problems with a bluegun.

For the OP, ideas:

Alter the environment. Low light, no light, a few candles, fire, smoke/fogger, strobelights, loud music and lights like a club.

Start out wounded. Take a direct hit to the support hand and start fighting. Wear muddy, or blood smeared goggles. Start on your back.

Two on one, panhandlers, really pressing you. In your space. How do you escalate?

Carjacking. Hell yes. Fight INSIDE the car.

Hostage.

Suicidal person with a gun

Fast clearing. Slow clearing.

Clear odd places. A houseboat. A trailer. A church. An office. A barn. A warehouse.

Good luck!

Now this is what I'm talking about when I ask for ideas.
And I know what you mean about airsoft guns breaking. That's one reason why I get the gas operated metal ones or just use a redgun (or in your case a bluegun)

 

[Aaron1776]

I would again disagree (sorry man) and say that going through the process of a "car jacking" where someone has weapons (simulated weapons) and is using force to try and hurt you is absolutely something worth going through. Simply knowing it is going to happen isn't enough for you to "win." There are lots of decisions to be made and to work through.

• Under what circumstances would you choose to comply and give him your car. (mindset labs can help here)
• What is the best time to go "hands on", muzzle avert, and fight?
• Is there a time to draw your gun?
• How does your method of carry (appendix vs strong side) affect your ability to access your weapon?
• How does it ruin all your plans if you forget your seatbelt is on?
• How can you use verbal skills and movement to distract from a weapon draw?
• How do I fight inside a car? (Shivworks deals with this specifically)
• Under what circumstances would you simply smash on the skinny pedal on the right?
• What does it feel like to be hit, punched, fake stabbed, and smashed when you're trapped in a seat belt in a car.
• Run the scenario as if you have a kid in the back seat, and then again if you are by yourself

This is just a short list I thought of quickly. Anyone with some FoF could do a similar list and may come up with the same things to work or perhaps completely different ones.

Put another way...if a grappler tells you "I'm going to take you down, advance position, and choke you." Simply knowing its going to happen isn't going to change the outcome. This isn't Schrodinger's wrestler. You have to train against someone who is opposing you plain and simple. Force on force is one way to train that. Being surprised at the situation is only one small piece of the puzzle. Getting to a class that specializes in surprising you and making you hit decisions in an adrenal state is awesome...but to think that is the only way to train for real situations would be a massive mistake.

There is a lot more to the story than "surprise". You need to know if the plan you came up with in your head actually works even if it works theoretically according to your training, and, if you already know it works in real life, you need to practice against a real human being. Training needs to be broken down into elements. Also it's impossible to acheive true surprised in just about any training school outside of an immersive, you live there 24/7 at a base training center where you can go to war at any moment on the drop of a hat. (And even then in the back of your mind you're expecting that.) Going to Mindset is an excellent example. You're there for X amount of hours, the entire time you run senarios you know SOMETHING will happen even if you don't know what it is. And even in real life, if you're aware, you can see it coming. If you think that because there isn't any "surprise" is an excuse not to do it, then good luck finding FoF training that is worthwhile.

It's funny how I was surprised by the attacks that came at me, but somehow my "non surprise" training still put them on the ground and left me unharmed. Or in the case of the attempted mugging when I had my sidearm, I saw them coming and got my gun out in time to make them **** their pants. Thus proving that you're not always "surprised" and thus "non surprise" training is useful.

People need to quit finding excuses to be training snobs. I train by myself doing dry practice. I train with friends doing dry practice. I train at schools doing live fire or sim rounds, and I'll train with my friends with an airsoft gun for close in, and I'll be a lot better off for it.

 

[churchmouse]

Sparring isn't a real fight. I know nobody is going to get seriously hurt, but it certainly has value to me for working my skills.

Sparring works muscle memory for combinations and given techniques. Reactions to strikes from all angles and responses to those strikes. After you get warmed up, put on some head gear and get after it. Getting a few blows landed will make you re-evaluate defense and striking postures. Nothing changes your plans like a solid hit to the head.

 

[Aaron1776]

Yes we do have a security team. As well as uniformed LEOs on site during services. Off duty LEOs are also carrying as well as a few staff members.

I wish my church was like that. We have a "security team" that's unarmed.

God love them, they might be able to break up a scuffle or something, but, if I wanted to tear the security team apart with my kabar and pocket pistol, I probably could. I've tried explaining this several times, but it falls upon deaf ears. Almost thought things would change after the CT shooting when they asked me to find information on training an armed team, but that came to nothing. Now if there is a shooter near me I'm gonna have to wait for the security team to get themselves shot first before I can even think about taking a shot. Assuming they're stupid enough to rush a man who probably has multiple weapons. So instead myself and the other armed & trained members of the church will probably just have to grab our loved ones and head for the door rather than being utilized as a team.

Suburbanites can be so amazingly

 

[shooter651]

+1 for Fortress Defense.

Force on Force is an amazing training tool!!
Highly recommend!!!

 

[MangoTango]

I think dprimm had a great idea and we did this with SWAT all of the time. Find events in the news and replay them. It is not high speed and does factor in decisions under stress but it does give your brain the process of finding alternative options, agreeing with the original persons actions or realizing you have a training gap or lack of an item for EDC. It is one thing to talk about events and another thing to go through the motions of the events. What would be in the background, could I have avoided the situation, was deadly force necessary, what would i instruct others to do. Prime recognition decision making.

 

[thatgtrguy]

I wish my church was like that. We have a "security team" that's unarmed.

God love them, they might be able to break up a scuffle or something, but, if I wanted to tear the security team apart with my kabar and pocket pistol, I probably could. I've tried explaining this several times, but it falls upon deaf ears. Almost thought things would change after the CT shooting when they asked me to find information on training an armed team, but that came to nothing. Now if there is a shooter near me I'm gonna have to wait for the security team to get themselves shot first before I can even think about taking a shot. Assuming they're stupid enough to rush a man who probably has multiple weapons. So instead myself and the other armed & trained members of the church will probably just have to grab our loved ones and head for the door rather than being utilized as a team.

Suburbanites can be so amazingly

Some churches have a very pacifist leaning to them. If a shooter is shooting near me; I'm putting him down regardless of the church policy. The security team guys can compete for who calls 911 the fastest since they're of little use unarmed.