gas piston AR's

[dwh79]

I can not find much info on these. Anybody have one or have any opinions? I would like to find more info on these.

 

[Richard]

I can not find much info on these. Anybody have one or have any opinions? I would like to find more info on these.

They are a solution to a problem which does not exist.

AR's run just fine with their direct gas system, 40 years of front line service with the worlds most powerful military is indisputable.

 

[mettle]

I have an XCR. Love it. Runs great. What brand are you looking for? Have you thought about an AK variant that shoots .223 as well? I understand that you don't want the direct gas system. Fussy little whiners they are requiring a lot of love and maintenance.
There are several brands. CMMG, POF, Robinson Arms, I believe DSA makes a .308. Bushmaster makes a piston conversion as well.

 

[shooter521]

They are a solution to a problem which does not exist.

I'm not on the gas piston bandwagon, but I won't entirely dismiss them that easily, either. They are a niche weapon, to be sure, but they can be of benefit to certain groups of folks. If some combination of the following applies to you:

1) You shoot A LOT and are not able to clean or conduct PM at regular intervals
2) You have a short-barreled (<14.5") carbine
3) You shoot full-auto
4) You shoot suppressed

then a gas piston system may be worth looking into. But I would wager that the vast majority of regular joes who have piston ARs just have them because they are the current fashion, rather than out of any real need.

My problem with the piston systems is that right now there is no standard; every manufacturer does things a little differently, and none of the parts are compatible among the various systems. Sooner or later, a standard WILL emerge, and owners of all the other systems are going to find themselves stuck with the firearm equivalent of a betamax VCR. That's not a risk I'm willing to take, but then I've never been the first one on my block to run out and buy the latest tech geegaw.

Finally, all of the "drop in" retrofit systems (which are by far the most affordable) seem to have their own built-in set of issues, including bent op rods, broken pins, excessive wear on the lower caused by carrier tilt, and sheared carrier key screws. Looking at accounts of these guns/kits going through carbine courses, and it appears the failure rate is much higher than with DI carbines; my belief is that it's because there are more parts present in the system, and thus more potential points for failure.

My DI carbines run fine. I'm not operating in extreme environments, don't mind cleaning the things, and don't run suppressed (yet) or full-auto. Thus, I can't justify spending the $$ on a piston system. As always, let the mission drive the gear train.

My

DetroitTackleberry:
Read the Forum Rules, dude. Posts like that don't count toward your 10. You'll have to actually contribute something before you can use the classifieds...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._forum_tips_-_please_read_before_posting.html

In order to participate in the classifieds section you must have a quality post count of 10 or more. This policy is in place to help weed out scammers/spammers and gives our members a chance to get a feel for you as a board member. Do not attempt to gain access to the classifieds by posting a bunch of "one liners". That will not work.

 

[ihateiraq]

ive decided on a piston system, and im crossing my fingers for a scar. xcr, sig556, and the h&k are all close seconds though. it will depend on price and availability come december.

 

[emclean]

the AR-180 is back in production, and has alwase been a piston desine, as is the M17.
not eaxctly what you were looking for, but they are options for piston operated weaponst that use the M16 magazen.

 

[tyler34]

I guarantee the XCR will be the cheapest and the shortest lead time. now the the OP I chose gas piston because of reliability, not that DI is inherently bad but it is a bit less forgiving. I don't think an operating system coming the most reliable rifle in the world (AK47) would be current fashion, I would call it an improvement and don't understand why people are hating on it so much.

 

[ihateiraq]

I guarantee the XCR will be the cheapest and the shortest lead time. now the the OP I chose gas piston because of reliability, not that DI is inherently bad but it is a bit less forgiving. I don't think an operating system coming the most reliable rifle in the world (AK47) would be current fashion, I would call it an improvement and don't understand why people are hating on it so much.

yea, im sure it will be the cheapest, but as long as the scar or h&k price isnt some outrageous amount id prolly get one of them. anywhere north of 2700 or so and ill go elsewhere. i can fire 3 or 4 hundred rounds through my 240 and clean it faster than my m4 with maybe 3 mags through it, and the 240 has never jammed on me. im sold on both the piston and FN. im not saying the DI system is junk or anything, i just think the piston is better. regardless of whether or not di works, i dont see any merit to the if its not broke dont fix it mantra.

 

[Richard]

I'm not on the gas piston bandwagon, but I won't entirely dismiss them that easily, either. They are a niche weapon, to be sure, but they can be of benefit to certain groups of folks. If some combination of the following applies to you:

1) You shoot A LOT and are not able to clean or conduct PM at regular intervals
2) You have a short-barreled (<14.5") carbine
3) You shoot full-auto
4) You shoot suppressed

then a gas piston system may be worth looking into. But I would wager that the vast majority of regular joes who have piston ARs just have them because they are the current fashion, rather than out of any real need.

Good points, I agree wholeheartedly that the above are applications where a gas pistoned upper may outpreform the standard DI one, but those are scenarios which the vast majority of us civilians will never see, at least not to the point of exploiting the advantage of a gas piston system over a DI one.

My problem with the piston systems is that right now there is no standard; every manufacturer does things a little differently, and none of the parts are compatible among the various systems. Sooner or later, a standard WILL emerge, and owners of all the other systems are going to find themselves stuck with the firearm equivalent of a betamax VCR. That's not a risk I'm willing to take, but then I've never been the first one on my block to run out and buy the latest tech geegaw.

I am not sure a single gas piston standard will ever emerge, at least not unless one becomes USGI.

Finally, all of the "drop in" retrofit systems (which are by far the most affordable) seem to have their own built-in set of issues, including bent op rods, broken pins, excessive wear on the lower caused by carrier tilt, and sheared carrier key screws. Looking at accounts of these guns/kits going through carbine courses, and it appears the failure rate is much higher than with DI carbines; my belief is that it's because there are more parts present in the system, and thus more potential points for failure.

Yea the retrofitted gas piston catastrophic failure rate does seem to be rather high, but then again Eugene Stoner did not intend for his infamous design to be retrofitted into a gas piston system by a bunch of kitchen table gunsmiths either.

My DI carbines run fine. I'm not operating in extreme environments, don't mind cleaning the things, and don't run suppressed (yet) or full-auto. Thus, I can't justify spending the $$ on a piston system. As always, let the mission drive the gear train.

Well I think it goes back to the whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" - the AR is one of the most successful rifle designs in history.

My

Great post Shooter! thanks for the discussion.

 

[mettle]

I have a friend that is an Master of Arms for the Navy, attached to a Marine unit abroad. He does not share your opinion of 'successful' design, optimism. He says that the AR is still in use b/c big influential hands still gain money by keeping the design in use. He also adds that the parts go bad so quickly, are replaced so rapidly and are available; for these reasons, the AR is still in use. Not b/c it is 'good'. he would know, in his terms "I handle the piece of ****s everyday and if I had my choice it would be the AK or M1 design".

 

[patience0830]

sig

ive decided on a piston system, and im crossing my fingers for a scar. xcr, sig556, and the h&k are all close seconds though. it will depend on price and availability come december.

i've heard good things about the SIG 556. not an owner.... yet.

 

[Richard]

Mettle,

The whole: "I know a guy / conspiracy" arguement is really not one I would care to discuss.

A more direct one based either on personal experience &/or personal observation would be much more preferable than having unquantifiable 3rd person "expertise" being cited as fact.

 

[mettle]

Mettle,

The whole: "I know a guy / conspiracy" arguement is really not one I would care to discuss.

A more direct one based either on personal experience &/or personal observation would be much more preferable than having unquantifiable 3rd person "expertise" being cited as fact.

Well, whatever. I've known him personally for ten years. Forgive me, I must have been lying and until you told me, I didn't even know it.

 

[Richard]

Mettle,

I am sorry if what I said hurt your feelings but come on you really expect us to buy into: "I know a guy who's an expert & he says AR's are complete junk & there is this massive conspiricy that has kept them in our soldiers hands for the last 40+ someodd years" as a valid arguement against Stoner's design?

I don't think your lying, I just don't see any validity there.

 

[mettle]

That happens. Opinions are really subjective, and valued by personal knowledge and experience with oneself and with others. So is respect. You say Stoner's design is great. I say it's not, its just been around b/c USA is slow to turn on something and there are other reasons why its been around, NATO being a lot of it.

I should not have been on this thread anyways. I sold my Di guns when I found one that could function better. End of the story for me. I'm out of this thread, won't even be looking at it again. Sorry for 'hurtful sayings' against your staple gun. BTW, your 'massive conspiracy' sarcasism was funny. Really. I laughed. See ya.

Mettle,

I am sorry if what I said hurt your feelings but come on you really expect us to buy into: "I know a guy who's an expert & he says AR's are complete junk & there is this massive conspiricy that has kept them in our soldiers hands for the last 40+ someodd years" as a valid arguement against Stoner's design?

I don't think your lying, I just don't see any validity there.

 

[ihateiraq]

Mettle,

The whole: "I know a guy / conspiracy" arguement is really not one I would care to discuss.

A more direct one based either on personal experience &/or personal observation would be much more preferable than having unquantifiable 3rd person "expertise" being cited as fact.

ive handled every m16 from the a2 on, and m4s. i dont like them either. ive had jams on the range that require a gerber to clear, or even being sent to an armorer. and i clean it every night and polish my rounds every week. across the board, they are decent rifles. but not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. just because the american military uses them doesnt make them supreme. just because theyve been around since vietnam doesnt make them the best either. i question whether or not my rifle will fire every time all the time, especially if i were to need it at the end of an 8 hour patrol. would i trade it for an ak? not necessarily. the only aks ive handled are captured from hajis, and theyre junk. if i could get my hands on a well crafted one and familiarize myself with it, then maybe. but as far as the civilian market goes, i dont think its a necessity(the piston). if it jams on a range, oh well. you dont carry it every day, so you wouldnt have to clean it daily. i pretty much just want one because i like to be the same, but slightly different. thats why i have a macbook.

 

[slow1911s]

I don't like GP ARs because of the weight, for one.

The other barometer I use for "what's better" is what the competition crowd uses. Now, I know, there are more than a few people here that scoff at that notion. Fine. But they're not using them and for good reason - little to no advantage. From a cost standpoint - DI has the advantage. Here's a quote from Kurt Miller who is a 3-gun champion and international LE instructor.

I am neither for or against piston guns, but I will say this if you have good mags, good ammo, and good oil, any D.I. gun is as "dead nuts" reliable as any piston gun. If an AR isn't reliable, it is almost always a maintainance issue, next is a bad mag, next is gas rings, Now whether gas rings are on the bolt or on a piston out front really seems the same to me. I wouldn't spend the extra money for the piston system, I would buy a case of ammo for practice and a Quart of Mobile 1.

 

[dwh79]

Thanks for all of the replys it was very informative. I have an AR but if I had to have a go to rifle I wish I had a M-14 instead.

 

[Dr. Pretorius]

I know that a lot of people love their Direct Impingement AR's and I'm not knocking them, but the two that I owned were unreliable and finicky about ammo and cleaning procedures. I sold the AR's and gave up on ever owning another for a long time. After seeing a lot of buzz about the Gas Piston systems I decided to start building a lower and pick up a Gas Piston upper when I got my tax money back and give the AR one last chance. I did just that and boy am I glad I did. I bought the Bushmaster M4 piston upper for $1,100 (OUCH!) and I have to say that this thing has been as reliable as my AK with every kind of ammo I've put thru it and is just as accurate as any Direct Impingement AR that I've shot and the clean up is a snap. I'm not looking to start a VS war here, I'm just letting you know my experience. The Bushmaster uses the same system as the POF. This is the complete upper and not the Add-on DIY Kit they sell which is a different system all together.