Go Red for Ed(ucation)!

[Jludo]

Where did this paradigm originate that teachers were under paid? Teaching is a good and service just like engineers, doctors, plumbers, and police officers. If the field isn't paying enough for you, choose another. But it seems like we want educators exempted from economic reality. For some reason, we've adopted this idea that they're worth the same pay as doctors or even more (in some peoples' eyes). If they were worth it, the market would see to it they were paid accordingly. And if the public education system is unable to meet the expectations, maybe it's indicative that we should untether education from taxes and let the market figure it out.

Because public officials set the wages, it's not a free market. It's a public good.

 

[Jludo]

Education is a societal good. You won't hear me saying "societal good" in a positive way for many things, but for the good of society, education is a benefit. But. Funding public stuff is hard. That extra barn at the state fairgrounds is to some people, more valuable than some other things. But it's not even that. That money comes from a different source. Maybe we could talk about funding schools in other ways than how we fund them now. But I certainly don't want to push the administrative power up the chain so far as the state or federal level. Its too centralized as it is.

I think you're having a separate debate. Theres whether teachers should get paid more and then theres how it should be done. Im arguing with the 'teachers shouldn't make more' crowd.

I'd probably agree a lot with how funding should be overhauled.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Because public officials set the wages, it's not a free market. It's a public good.

And it's no surprise about how much a prospective teacher will be earning if they choose that field. They are not signing on to some stint of servitude. They know or should know what they're signing up for. I fail to have any more sympathy for them than they probably did for me when my pay stagnated or even had to take a pay cut here or there.

So I'll ask again: How much more? What is the number? It can't just be "they should be paid more". That complaint can never be measured as to if it's ever satisfactorily resolved. We need a number.

 

[Jludo]

And it's no surprise about how much a prospective teacher will be earning if they choose that field. They are not signing on to some stint of servitude. They know or should know what they're signing up for. I fail to have any more sympathy for them than they probably did for me when my pay stagnated or even had to take a pay cut here or there.

Clearly we are talking past one another.

 

[jamil]

Where did this paradigm originate that teachers were under paid? Teaching is a good and service just like engineers, doctors, plumbers, and police officers. If the field isn't paying enough for you, choose another. But it seems like we want educators exempted from economic reality. For some reason, we've adopted this idea that they're worth the same pay as doctors or even more (in some peoples' eyes). If they were worth it, the market would see to it they were paid accordingly. And if the public education system is unable to meet the expectations, maybe it's indicative that we should untether education from taxes and let the market figure it out.

This isn't a free market issue because we're not talking about something that works like a free market. Maybe there's room to talk about making it that. But it's not a sane person who thinks teachers should be paid the same as brain surgeons. You look at the work they perform, the prerequisites to be a teacher, the job itself, and the value of educating perhaps hundreds of students per teacher, it's pretty obvious to me that the market pay is undervalued. I think if there were a truly free market, teacher salaries would be higher. But their pay is considerably coupled to property tax revenue. The market can't see to it that they are paid accordingly because there isn't really a functioning market. There's just tax referendums on the ballot every couple of years and me voting "no" because I'm taxed enough already.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Clearly we are talking past one another.

You are singing the same chorus as the others-- you want some ambiguous "more" pay. How much more? What is the number?

 

[Jludo]

45k for starting teachers minimum

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This isn't a free market issue because we're not talking about something that works like a free market. Maybe there's room to talk about making it that. But it's not a sane person who thinks teachers should be paid the same as brain surgeons. You look at the work they perform, the prerequisites to be a teacher, the job itself, and the value of educating perhaps hundreds of students per teacher, it's pretty obvious to me that the market pay is undervalued. I think if there were a truly free market, teacher salaries would be higher. But their pay is considerably coupled to property tax revenue. The market can't see to it that they are paid accordingly because there isn't really a functioning market. There's just tax referendums on the ballot every couple of years and me voting "no" because I'm taxed enough already.

So...what's the proper number? If they should be higher, then what is it? Has anyone ever said? All I hear is more, more, more. Whatever they're getting paid (even though they knew what that pay would be) is now not enough. Well, what's the number?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

45k for starting teachers minimum

Is that from the Red for Ed site?

 

[jamil]

I think you're having a separate debate. Theres whether teachers should get paid more and then theres how it should be done. Im arguing with the 'teachers shouldn't make more' crowd.

I'd probably agree a lot with how funding should be overhauled.

Not really, though I am trying to take it in a different direction. I'm saying the way it is now, you can't just pay teachers more. How much teachers SHOULD make would be decided fairly in a truly free market. In the kind of non-market we have now, it's not that straightforward. It is the way it is because how we fund it. And I don't see an easy solution because the state of public education and the impact on society would be far worse by centralizing it more.

 

[Jludo]

Is that from the Red for Ed site?

That's out of my head, I could care less about red for ed

 

[Coach]

Teacher compensation was drastically changed by Mitch Daniel's while he was the Governor. When I became a teacher in 1993 there was a salary scale in each corporation. I knew what I was getting into and what I could expect to be paid. The schedule was roughly a $1,000 increment each year for twenty years. The amount if you had a BS or BA was one level and the amount for an MS or MA was another higher level. It varied from school district to school district. Then Mitch and the boys gutted it and changed the rules. People were stuck in a level for five to ten years instead of one. Many of the people younger than me were trapped at a very low level that was not the schedule that was not what had been "promised". I was old enough and further up the schedule and had my master's finished prior to the deadline so I slipped past in the nick of time. Many did not and they have a legitimate complaint. Much of the non-teaching school staff is a tremendous waste of money and counter productive to the mission of delivering an education to students. A huge amount of money is spent on technology is also a huge waste of money.

Saddling schools with parenting responsibilities is also a factor that soaks up time, money and energy that should not be the classroom teachers responsibility.

Teacher's unions suck and a waste time, money and energy. The AFT, NEA representatives that speak regularly at the state house are an embarrassment to real teachers.

Special Education is a money pit of ultimate dimension. But as soon as you start speaking the truth of this subject the whack jobs will come out of the woodwork.

Administration costs and salaries are ridiculous. Being a superintendent pays really well and there are so many perks in those job it is criminal. They are all public and should be posted on each schools website. Look it up for your self.

Mental health positions in schools do many things that are counter productive to education on a daily basis.<br><br>There is much wrong with education and schools and many talking points such as vouchers and charter schools are just that talking points. You name the public school and let me run it for two years under the same rules charter schools get to operate and I am will give you the results you want.

I am getting paid what I am worth as an educator with 26 years of experience. I am blessed in many ways. I teach only dual credit history at this time. Most of my students care and give a good effort. Many teachers are not in that situation.

I am also sick and tired of taxes. I am sick and tired of waste in schools and government. I am sick and tired of people fighting a President that is trying to make positive changes and progress. Nov 19th I will be at school doing my job.

 

[jamil]

So...what's the proper number? If they should be higher, then what is it? Has anyone ever said? All I hear is more, more, more. Whatever they're getting paid (even though they knew what that pay would be) is now not enough. Well, what's the number?

We would know what that number is if we had a free market to determine the value. My estimation is more than what many are being paid now. But I'm not about to vote for a tax increase. I'm against setting an arbitrary number that's "higher" because of that.

 

[jamil]

That's out of my head, I could care less about red for ed

which is another way of saying you care more about it than the least you could care about it.

 

[BugI02]

Teacher compensation was drastically changed by Mitch Daniel's while he was the Governor. When I became a teacher in 1993 there was a salary scale in each corporation. I knew what I was getting into and what I could expect to be paid. The schedule was roughly a $1,000 increment each year for twenty years. The amount if you had a BS or BA was one level and the amount for an MS or MA was another higher level. It varied from school district to school district. Then Mitch and the boys gutted it and changed the rules. People were stuck in a level for five to ten years instead of one. Many of the people younger than me were trapped at a very low level that was not the schedule that was not what had been "promised". I was old enough and further up the schedule and had my master's finished prior to the deadline so I slipped past in the nick of time. Many did not and they have a legitimate complaint. Much of the non-teaching school staff is a tremendous waste of money and counter productive to the mission of delivering an education to students. A huge amount of money is spent on technology is also a huge waste of money.

Saddling schools with parenting responsibilities is also a factor that soaks up time, money and energy that should not be the classroom teachers responsibility.

Teacher's unions suck and a waste time, money and energy. The AFT, NEA representatives that speak regularly at the state house are an embarrassment to real teachers.

Special Education is a money pit of ultimate dimension. But as soon as you start speaking the truth of this subject the whack jobs will come out of the woodwork.

Administration costs and salaries are ridiculous. Being a superintendent pays really well and there are so many perks in those job it is criminal. They are all public and should be posted on each schools website. Look it up for your self.

Mental health positions in schools do many things that are counter productive to education on a daily basis.<br><br>There is much wrong with education and schools and many talking points such as vouchers and charter schools are just that talking points. You name the public school and let me run it for two years under the same rules charter schools get to operate and I am will give you the results you want.

I am getting paid what I am worth as an educator with 26 years of experience. I am blessed in many ways. I teach only dual credit history at this time. Most of my students care and give a good effort. Many teachers are not in that situation.

I am also sick and tired of taxes. I am sick and tired of waste in schools and government. I am sick and tired of people fighting a President that is trying to make positive changes and progress. Nov 19th I will be at school doing my job.

This ^^^

The system is recreating the failed college model, with the frontline PS teachers playing the role of adjunct professor. If you want results, schools need to be able to show troublemakers the door at some point, and a person should be able to have a worthwhile career just teaching. If one has to move into administration to pursue a satisfying career, that's where many of the best and brightest will go, gutting the ranks of frontline teaching

We also need to talk about freeing up the future of ineffective teachers, but first you need to give them more control of the classroom environment before you hold them accountable. The only certainty under the current system is that, like college, costs will grow at rates considerably faster than inflation and the finished product will be sub-standard

 

[Clark & Addison]

Teacher compensation was drastically changed by Mitch Daniel's while he was the Governor. When I became a teacher in 1993 there was a salary scale in each corporation. I knew what I was getting into and what I could expect to be paid. The schedule was roughly a $1,000 increment each year for twenty years. The amount if you had a BS or BA was one level and the amount for an MS or MA was another higher level. It varied from school district to school district. Then Mitch and the boys gutted it and changed the rules. People were stuck in a level for five to ten years instead of one. Many of the people younger than me were trapped at a very low level that was not the schedule that was not what had been "promised". I was old enough and further up the schedule and had my master's finished prior to the deadline so I slipped past in the nick of time. Many did not and they have a legitimate complaint. Much of the non-teaching school staff is a tremendous waste of money and counter productive to the mission of delivering an education to students. A huge amount of money is spent on technology is also a huge waste of money.

Saddling schools with parenting responsibilities is also a factor that soaks up time, money and energy that should not be the classroom teachers responsibility.

Teacher's unions suck and a waste time, money and energy. The AFT, NEA representatives that speak regularly at the state house are an embarrassment to real teachers.

Special Education is a money pit of ultimate dimension. But as soon as you start speaking the truth of this subject the whack jobs will come out of the woodwork.

Administration costs and salaries are ridiculous. Being a superintendent pays really well and there are so many perks in those job it is criminal. They are all public and should be posted on each schools website. Look it up for your self.

Mental health positions in schools do many things that are counter productive to education on a daily basis.<br><br>There is much wrong with education and schools and many talking points such as vouchers and charter schools are just that talking points. You name the public school and let me run it for two years under the same rules charter schools get to operate and I am will give you the results you want.

I am getting paid what I am worth as an educator with 26 years of experience. I am blessed in many ways. I teach only dual credit history at this time. Most of my students care and give a good effort. Many teachers are not in that situation.

I am also sick and tired of taxes. I am sick and tired of waste in schools and government. I am sick and tired of people fighting a President that is trying to make positive changes and progress. Nov 19th I will be at school doing my job.

I couldn't agree more. I too am planning on being in my classroom on Nov 19th doing my job.

 

[Clark & Addison]

to my knowledge, teachers are the only profession that has a state law requiring raises so long as certain standards are met. I can point you to the law if you need it.

I am a non-union public school teacher. I would be interested in seeing the law that requires teacher raises. I know of some corporations in my area that have taken pay cuts over the last handful of years. I wish I knew more about state and school finance so I could form an educated opinion on how the state treats teacher pay. I have a feeling that my displeasure with my pay has as much or more to due with my local corporation than it does with the state. Other teachers I work with want to blame the state but I'm not sure if some of them are smart enough to realize the state gets its money by taking it from the people.

 

[Clark & Addison]

Are teachers the only ones that don't research typical compensation packages and work requirements when choosing a career path? Are these sprung on them as a surprise, only once they've accepted the job? I ask, because when I was a young man, trying to decide which on a career path, I certainly looked into those things. I'm pretty sure plenty of other people do too but apparently teachers are the only ones caught unawares.

While pay was not the reason I went in to teaching, I did look at the typical compensation package prior to becoming a teacher. That compensation package did indeed change once I had been teaching for a few years. I knew what my starting pay would be, and I thought I knew what pay I'd be making until I topped out after 20 years. If my raises continue to average what I have received the last handful of years, when I do hit 20 years of experience I will be making less that a teacher that had 20 years experience in my corporation did 17 years prior. While I won't be taking a cut throughout that time, the position would have taken a cut while the price of everything else goes up.

That being said, I still enjoy my job (most of the time) and am grateful for the other benefits that come with it. It has been a great career for getting to spend time with my kids. No nights/no weekends/no summers are huge benefits that I don't take for granted.

 

[INgunowner]

Is it possible to just pay teachers so much that they dont need a union?

Um...
While I'm sure your comment was just a shot in the dark hypothetical...
I can't resist pointing out the obvious.

If you think you can out spend someone's greed you're going to be very disappointed not to mention broke.
I'll make some popcorn while you give that idea the old college try, guaranteed to be better than Netflix.

 

[jamil]

About special education, the IDEA act kinda ****ed school districts. It’s one of those mostly unfunded mandates from DC, which is a burden to the local school districts. It requires, among other things, that students with disabilities must receive Free Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) that is tailored to their individual needs.

Courts have ruled that the standard for FAPE is “significant progress”. So lots of law suites filed by parents who think their autistic child hasn’t made significant progress. And I’m not disparaging the parents. My nephew is severely autistic and he is no less loved by his family. But the “significant” standard of FAPE is really ****ing expensive, especially when the cost is paid by the local school districts. “Significant progress” for my nephew, isn’t a lot to people without mental disabilities. But it’s a lot to his parents. And it costs a lot to taxpayers.

It’s just a bad overall problem that’s not easily solved with a decentralized public education model. I want to keep the public schools decentralized. But the “significant progress” standard is unfair to the local school corporation to have to pay for that. It takes highly trained specialists with nearly constant individualized interaction with these students to achieve FAPE. If that has to be the standard then something else has to happen.

Ideally, maybe we have to talk about how realistic, and valuable to society is FAPE. I know it’s highly valuable to parents. But these parents are asking their local communities to pay for 6 hours per day of intensive individualized interaction with trained professionals, 5 days per week, 36 weeks per year. I think the community should get a say in how much that is worth to them.

So maybe this task needs to be different from the decentralized school model. Maybe there should be a different school for these kids, something that's not a burden to communities. Not sure that’s an answer I like. I kinda think we need to be more realistic about the real value to society. I empathize with these parents. They just want what's best for their kids like any parent. I would want that for my kid. But to educate their kids with the "significant progress" standard is an unfair burden on society for some of the most severe cases. Either way, The IDEA Act, with "significant progress" standard of FAPE, is incompatible with the idea of community school systems, and it takes resources away from the traditional classroom, which has a larger impact on society.