Good Read - Off Duty/CCW encounter

[Demo]

Semper Fi- I carry and train to defend and protect my family and myself period.

In this particular event the LEO hung around and confronted the perp thereby escalating the situation to a gun fight.

If I'm standing at a cash register with my family and the cashier says "there is s man in the back with a gun" I'm warning others as I get my family out the door and calling 911. I'll even look around for a get away driver as I continue to get space and mass between my family and the McDonalds.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Semper Fi- I carry and train to defend and protect my family and myself period.

In this particular event the LEO hung around and confronted the perp thereby escalating the situation to a gun fight.

If I'm standing at a cash register with my family and the cashier says "there is s man in the back with a gun" I'm warning others as I get my family out the door and calling 911. I'll even look around for a get away driver as I continue to get space and mass between my family and the McDonalds.

My question to you was rhetorical. Not questioning the wisdom of your choice. If you turn and leave, which is the the right decision for you, what was the purpose and value of carrying a gun? None. You didn't use it. In any event I respect that you wouldn't engage.

The gun fight occurred because the officer talked instead of shot. Had he fired (and hit), there would have been no gunfight.

 

[henktermaat]

If you turn and leave, which is the the right decision for you, what was the purpose and value of carrying a gun? None. You didn't use it. In any event I respect that you wouldn't engage.

The gun fight occurred because the officer talked instead of shot. Had he fired (and hit), there would have been no gunfight.

Just like as with a fire extinguisher, Some of us carry guns and hope to never use them.

You're making some pretty broad assumptions about Demo. Just because he wouldn't use a gun when getting the family out was an option, doesn't mean he has no point at all in which he would use it.

There is value and purpose in carrying something that you don't need at most given moments.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Just like as with a fire extinguisher, Some of us carry guns and hope to never use them.

You're making some pretty broad assumptions about Demo. Just because he wouldn't use a gun when getting the family out was an option, doesn't mean he has no point at all in which he would use it.

There is value and purpose in carrying something that you don't need at most given moments.

I made no assumption about anyone. There is not correct answer to my question to Demo. It is for everyone to define their own answer. I simply posed a RHETORICAL QUESTION.

Rhetorical: Asked simply for effect with no expectation of a reply.

Rhetorical Question: A figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to think about what the answer to the question must be.

 

[henktermaat]

I made no assumption about anyone. There is not correct answer to my question to Demo. It is for everyone to define their own answer. I simply posed a RHETORICAL QUESTION.

Rhetorical: Asked simply for effect with no expectation of a reply.

Rhetorical Question: A figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to think about what the answer to the question must be.

Fair enough. Then put the word "Rhetorically,... " in front of my post

 

[glockednlocked]

It is a tradgedy no matter how you look at it. I agree 100% in the "theory" of shoot first, a fair fight is a fight that you should have prepared better for to stack the odds in your favor. In my home I would allway shoot from surprise I will be the lightning not the thunder but that is the luxury of the home field advantage. That said lets look at this from the cops perspective. What if the perp wasnt a perp. What if the man coming out of the office is the manager legally armed pursuing the perp? Things are not allways as they seem and officers are trained to evaluate the situation first. We all have info not available at the time and our bashing his tactics is misplaced. We have the luxury of just protecting "our" people and not engaging if we dont choose to. If there is one message I come away with it is. You start shooting "you own every bullet" and innocent people get hurt or killed. Look at the big picture and know you are doing whats right because at the end of the day people will judge you and the only peace you will have is knowing in your heart you did right.

 

[froggy1228]

Great read thanks for posting!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

It is a tradgedy no matter how you look at it. I agree 100% in the "theory" of shoot first, a fair fight is a fight that you should have prepared better for to stack the odds in your favor. In my home I would allway shoot from surprise I will be the lightning not the thunder but that is the luxury of the home field advantage. That said lets look at this from the cops perspective. What if the perp wasnt a perp. What if the man coming out of the office is the manager legally armed pursuing the perp? Things are not allways as they seem and officers are trained to evaluate the situation first. We all have info not available at the time and our bashing his tactics is misplaced. We have the luxury of just protecting "our" people and not engaging if we dont choose to. If there is one message I come away with it is. You start shooting "you own every bullet" and innocent people get hurt or killed. Look at the big picture and know you are doing whats right because at the end of the day people will judge you and the only peace you will have is knowing in your heart you did right.

I don't know, maybe he knew that it wasn't the manager because the perp was wearing a MASK?

National News Briefs - 9-Year-Old Girl Is Killed In Holdup at McDonald's - NYTimes.com

SHOOTING TURNS FAMILY'S DREAMS INTO NIGHTMARE; PARENTS SOUGHT NEW LIFE IN CALIFORNIA. - Free Online Library

Celebration Ended in Tragedy for Shootout Victim's Family - Los Angeles Times

Business | U.S. To Back Internet Liberty And Protection For Children | Seattle Times Newspaper

 

[dye]

Great article. Thanks for posting it. It really makes you think about what you would really do in a "situation". It is very sad about the 9 yr old.

 

[revance]

Semper Fi... you have good points, but are a bit harsh in your delivery.

The officer does a lot of talking about training for CC versus duty carry. I hope he has included the announcing yourself issue in that training. If you are on duty responding to something, I know sometimes you are required to announce yourself. However as a regular Joe, you have no duty to give up all tactical advantage to give the perp warning. I don't know the rules regarding off duty LEO, but it would be dept. policy, not law (at least here in IN). I'm sure that guy would rather be fired than have a dead 9yo on his hands.

I respect people's opinions on getting the heck out of there. That is fine as long as yo have already made that decision. However you need to draw that line in the sand NOW as to when you are going to use your weapon. Otherwise you will hesitate and end up dead. Boone Co. Sheriff Ken Campbell has a great section on this in his classes. He explains that you need to take every opportunity to go through situations in your head and decide at what point you draw and shoot. If something doesn't feel/look right, start formulating a plan "IF" something goes wrong. When things go south, you should constantly be planning and keeping that "line in the sand" clear. This cop should have been doing that, he should have already made the decision as to when he would shoot. In reality, the thought of being confronted by the perp hadn't even crossed his mind. I think the part about thinking he used a back door was bogus... it doesn't sound like he thought about it at all. I think thats something he thought of after the fact. I mean no disrespect to the officer, he screwed up, we all do, but lets learn from it.

I do agree that there is more to learn from this story than just "get your family out and don't engage". I doubt that perp was expecting someone in plain clothes to pull a gun out and shoot him, that cop had every advantage and he threw it away. I don't think engaging was the worst of his mistakes. He eliminated a very bold dangerous criminal... he still might have saved many lives. I think the biggest mistake he made was hesitating and giving up his advantage. Could that girl still have died if he opened fire without warning or hesitation? Sure, we will never know. However we can't be sure he wouldn't have shot anyone if he didn't engage either. I think the best lesson from this is know now when you plan to engage and when you do... don't give up any advantage you have.

A fair fight means your tactics suck.

 

[MPD179]

About 8 years ago, I, was a patrolman on the street and still in the aggressive "I'll save the world" stage of my career. While patroling in my district, dispatch announced an armed robbery in progress at a liquor store only a few blocks away from my position. While heading in that direction, I was updated that two (2) suspects were both armed with handguns and fleeing behind the business in a north direction. I went in one block north of the business, blacked out, exited my cruiser and started running south through a residential neighborhood in the direction of the business.

Talk about Johnny on the spot, I see two dark forms of the suspects running directly at me. It was extremely dark behind these houses as I could barely see anything. I stopped, shouted out to identify myself , and had one of them in my sights. Both men, dove directly into the ground and followed my verbal commands. I held both at gunpoint until the calvery showed up. After they were taken into custody, I was so amped up thinking about everything I did, running it over & over in my mind. I began to think about all the things that could have went wrong. Had a gun battle ensued, I was alone and certain innocent people would have been in jeopardy being in a highly populated area. It turned out the two suspects I ordered to the ground were not the armed thugs. They were customers that made a decision to chase after the badguys. Can you imagine what would have happened had I opened up on them?

The off-duty officer in the OP decided to act and did everything (in my opinion) by text book. Personally, I have played this senerio out in my mind many times and would have let the badguy exit the store. I would then pick the location where I can confront him away from the other customers. In my experience, 99.9% of the time, the armed thugs get the loot and flee without firing a single shot. Had the badguy started shooting at random people on his exit, then I would be forced into taking action.

I can only imagine what spin the media would have put on this case, had the officer simply executed the armed thug, without attempting to identify himself & effect an arrest. Following the media spin, comes the public outcry for the officers head! Then after all the negative press (because it sells), how incriminating the video footage of the event could look to a Grand Jury a few months later as they determine your fate!

It's easy to sit back in a chair, in the comfort of our homes and think about what we would/should/could have done. It's another thing to actually be in the heat of the moment, acting in that capacity, making life & death split second decisions. A policeman makes these decisions all the time. It takes lawyers, prosecutors, jurors, & judges sometimes years to figure out if the LEO's decision was the right one. I do feel sorry for the officer in this story. Judging by his article, I have no doubt, the officer holds himself soley responsible for the loss of the 9year old girl and will carry that guilt to his grave.

 

[luvsviola]

MPD, great story!


I wasn't suggesting he should have gone all Rambo on the guy... I was just saying that IMHO the best two options were to either stay out of it or shoot first. It doesn't sound like he had his "line in the sand" drawn. It took the perp shooting first to force him to do it. I have talked to a couple LEOs who have been involved in shootings (or near shootings) and the ones who were happy with the results all talked of that one thing (that they had decided ahead of time) that caused them to shoot (or not shoot).

I guess my point is this... staying out of it because you feel that is safest is a perfectly valid decision. However if you decide to engage, please make sure you have your "line in the sand" drawn ahead of time. If that line is the guy opening fire, please rethink your decision to get involved (and likely escalating the whole thing). In theory, this guy should have had the perp in his sights before announcing himself. He was obviously very competent with his gun. He PROBABLY could have gotten a couple shots off between the time the perp raised the gun up and started shooting. It sounds like he hesitated.

 

[Demo]

I personally won't try to second guess the LEO involved in this. He had a lot more to consider and frankly be accountable for then me if I were in the same situation. Unless all the stars aligned he was almost screwed from the get go no matter what he did.

 

[VUPDblue]

One story about carrying a reload for your handgun

TheFiringLine Forums - View Single Post - A story all CPL holders should read & why you need plenty of ammo

The story above is about an off-duty California police officer who ended up in a gun battle while with his family at a McDonalds. It's an interesting read and makes you think...

 

[greyhound47]

Not sure what to say. Really brings into light the seriousness of the situation for us non-police CC'ers. Put yourself in that situation and imagine you just put the shooter down and you are in plain clothes. What do you do? Keep the guy covered and hope the responding officers don't kill you?

Makes me think - Get your family out FIRST and cover their retreat. Let someone else take the risk. Police, you get paid for it, I guess.

 

[singlestacksig]

11 rounds on 1 target?

 

[VUPDblue]

11 rounds on 1 target?

Yep, that's what the story said, well it was 10 rounds out of 11 fired but yeah.

 

[esrice]

He notes being afraid of covering the downed BG and being mistakenly shot by a fellow officer.

I've seen these advertised before, and thought they were kinda hokey and impractical. Wonder if this would've changed anything for that officer in that incident.

DSM Safety Products, for Law Enforcement, Concealed Carry Licenses and Security Personnel.

 

[grunt soldier]

11 rounds in 2 secs though singlestacksig. the guy was still probably standing and moving during those 2 secs which is why he kept firing. just my thoughts as i have seen it multiple times over in the sand box. i personally shot a guy 7 times in a fire fight all in the vitals and he just kept getting back up till i finally caught him in the head and he had lost enough blood not to be functional. adrenaline does crazy things to the body to say the least.

i am not knocking what he did at all but me i always tell people if a building is being robbed and it doesn't effect you to let it go. its not your money being taken and its insured. most the time they are their to get the money and leave w/ out anyone being harmed but if you confront them that changes the situation and there mind set. obviously there are situations where this is different but i always think about stuff like this and if me and mine aren't in immediate danger there is no reason to cause a situation. this is especially true to me if my daughter is around just because of what happened in the story above.

back on topic always have extra ammo for sure.

 

[pinshooter45]

I think he's being to hard on himself.

First let me say I know the pain of losing a child, my 24 yr old son died in an auto accident a couple of years ago. I know the pain of the parents of the nine year old, and know what he probably feels that she died during his actions. But He did all he could do, there are only so many things one can think of during a stressful situation. If he had not taken the action to get as many people out as possible it could have turned out worse. A lot worse if he had not been alert and not taken the actions that he did. Most of the self defence shows I watch stress get out of danger if possible, only take on the BG if there is no other choice. It is a hard choice for an off duty LEO to go after the BG, but he stopped a threat. No telling what might have happend had let him escape. It also read like this guy was willing to shoot anyone in his way. The LEO was in shorts and a t-shirt, the BG did not know he was a LEO an started shooting right away. One less BG on the street, I hope he can come to terms with this, sounds like he is by adding his knowledge to training.