Gun Confiscation Theoretical Question

[rambone]

It is commonly said that if the day came when Big Brother decides to confiscates guns, they will do so by first collecting all the sales records from FFL gun dealers, which are legally required to be kept for 10 years (I think). Once the records are in the hands of the Government, they can go to the homes of any/all owners of the formerly-legal firearms and confiscate them.


Question #1: Is the 10-year record keeping period correct, according to the law? After that, the paperwork is discarded? Any other details I should know about the law?

Question #2: What happens to the records when a gun shop goes out of business?


Also interested in your views on this whole phenomenon of record keeping. Thanks for the input guys. FFL input would be helpful.

 

[CarmelHP]

Question #1: Is the 10 year period correct, according to the law? After that there is no record of the sales? Any other details I should know about the law?

Question #2: What happens to the records when a gun shop goes out of business?

Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart H—Records

§ 478.129 Record retention.

(a) Records prior to Act. Licensed importers and licensed manufacturers may dispose of records of sale or other disposition of firearms prior to December 16, 1968. Licensed dealers and licensed collectors may dispose of all records of firearms transactions that occurred prior to December 16, 1968.
(b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 and Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a NICS check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee's records as provided in §478.124(b): Provided, That Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee's certification) order.
(c) Statement of intent to obtain a handgun, reports of multiple sales or other disposition of pistols and revolvers, and reports of theft or loss of firearms. Licensees shall retain each Form 5300.35 (Statement of Intent to Obtain a Handgun(s)) for a period of not less than 5 years after notice of the intent to obtain the handgun was forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer, as defined in §478.150(c). Licensees shall retain each copy of Form 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers) for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of sale or other disposition. Licensees shall retain each copy of Form 3310.11 (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report) for a period of not less than 5 years after the date the theft or loss was reported to ATF.
(d) Records of importation and manufacture. Licensees will maintain permanent records of the importation, manufacture, or other acquisition of firearms, including ATF Forms 6 and 6A as required by subpart G of this part. Licensed importers' records and licensed manufacturers' records of the sale or other disposition of firearms after December 15, 1968, shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded.
(e) Records of dealers and collectors under the Act. The records prepared by licensed dealers and licensed collectors under the Act of the sale or other disposition of firearms and the corresponding record of receipt of such firearms shall be retained through December 15, 1988, after which records of transactions over 20 years of age may be discarded.
(f) Retention of records of transactions in semiautomatic assault weapons. The documentation required by §§478.40(c) and 478.132 shall be retained in the licensee's permanent records for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of sale or other disposition.
(Paragraph (b) approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512–0544; Paragraph (c) approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control numbers 1512–0520, 1512–0006, and 1512–0524; Paragraph (f) approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512–0526; all other recordkeeping approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1512–0129)[T.D. ATF–208, 50 FR 26704, June 28, 1985 and correctly designated at 50 FR 35081, Aug. 29, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF–273, 53 FR 24687, June 30, 1988; T.D. ATF–361, 60 FR 10787, Feb. 27, 1995; T.D. ATF–363, 60 FR 17455, Apr. 6, 1995; T.D. ATF–415, 63 FR 58280, Oct. 29, 1998; T.D. ATF–426, 65 FR 38201, June 20, 2000]


Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
Subpart H—Records
§ 478.127 Discontinuance of business.

Where a licensed business is discontinued and succeeded by a new licensee, the records prescribed by this subpart shall appropriately reflect such facts and shall be delivered to the successor. Where discontinuance of the business is absolute, the records shall be delivered within 30 days following the business discontinuance to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center, 244 Needy Road, Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405, or to any ATF office in the division in which the business was located: Provided, however, Where State law or local ordinance requires the delivery of records to other responsible authority, the Chief, Federal Firearms Licensing Center may arrange for the delivery of the records required by this subpart to such authority: Provided further, That where a licensed business is discontinued and succeeded by a new licensee, the records may be delivered within 30 days following the business discontinuance to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center or to any ATF office in the division in which the business was located.
[T.D. ATF–290, 54 FR 53055, Dec. 27, 1989, as amended by T.D. ATF–363, 60 FR 17455, Apr. 6, 1995; ATF–11F, 73 FR 57242, Oct. 2, 2008]

 

[rambone]

Crap. Well now i wish the place was still in business. Now the ATF already has the records. Sonovabitch.

 

[INGunGuy]

If/When the FEDs do come for my guns, they better bring a small army with them because there is ONLY ONE WAY I am giving up my guns and that is to be killed, PERIOD. Oh and I will make sure to take as many of them with me as I can before I am killed myself. I dont think this is too big of a concern since EVERY LEO I know has said that they would refuse to confiscate firearms and if the order ever came, they would quit, go home and wait for TSTHTF. And before someone flames me for writing a threating post, I am not threating anyone for any reason, but we are talking hypothetical circumstances.

INGunGuy

 

[xamsx]

If/When the FEDs do come for my guns, they better bring a small army with them because there is ONLY ONE WAY I am giving up my guns and that is to be killed, PERIOD. Oh and I will make sure to take as many of them with me as I can before I am killed myself. I dont think this is too big of a concern since EVERY LEO I know has said that they would refuse to confiscate firearms and if the order ever came, they would quit, go home and wait for TSTHTF. And before someone flames me for writing a threating post, I am not threating anyone for any reason, but we are talking hypothetical circumstances.

INGunGuy

Agreed.

 

[mrjarrell]

As long as we have record keeping we have de facto registration in this country. Simple enough. In a related vein, Mike Vanderboegh wrote a piece regarding this very subject and recently republished it at his blog. It's a piece of fiction, but well worth the read. An interesting how to, should the need arise.
Once Upon A Tea Party

 

[Joe Williams]

If/When the FEDs do come for my guns, they better bring a small army with them because there is ONLY ONE WAY I am giving up my guns and that is to be killed, PERIOD. Oh and I will make sure to take as many of them with me as I can before I am killed myself. I dont think this is too big of a concern since EVERY LEO I know has said that they would refuse to confiscate firearms and if the order ever came, they would quit, go home and wait for TSTHTF. And before someone flames me for writing a threating post, I am not threating anyone for any reason, but we are talking hypothetical circumstances.

INGunGuy

It would be nicer if some of those folks in the know beforehand (and there would have to be some) spilled the beans, so we could run and gather, then put up a cohesive resistance. That, to me, beats the pants off of a last stand!!

 

[wolfman]

It would be nicer if some of those folks in the know beforehand (and there would have to be some) spilled the beans, so we could run and gather, then put up a cohesive resistance. That, to me, beats the pants off of a last stand!!

You might not have a lot of warning, but think about how this forum, texting, and twitter have affected the ability to grab a box or 2 of ammo from Wally World before that days stock sells out. It wouldn't take but a few seconds to, at the most a couple of hours, for the news of a government agent sezing a citizens firearms in this sort of action, to go world wide.

 

[mrjarrell]

It would also be nicer if those same people, (LEO's, military and what have you's) were members of the Oath Keepers and had signed on to their 10 Orders We Will Not Obey. Otherwise lots of people would be likely to get hurt or die with piles of brass around their feet.

 

[INGunGuy]

I would rather die standing with brass around my feet that to bow to a tyrannical government PERIOD!

INGunGuy

 

[00BlasterResto]

And the mods move closer........I'm outta here

 

[techres]

Just a quick warning from the Mods. This thread is close to the edge where it will disappear. Reminder: no sedition talk guys, no planning for anti-gov't stuff.

Keep it free of that and the thread will not go away.

 

[INGunGuy]

Well, nothing is being planned or no speak of armed conflict with our government. We were speaking of a hypothetical scenario about government firearms confiscation. I for one am not inciting armed insurrection.

INGunGuy

 

[ATF Consumer]

It would be nicer if some of those folks in the know beforehand (and there would have to be some) spilled the beans, so we could run and gather, then put up a cohesive resistance. That, to me, beats the pants off of a last stand!!

I shot my Mosin Nagant this weekend and I would really hate to see what it would do to flesh...I was simply amazed how much power those rounds have.

 

[Scutter01]

Well, nothing is being planned or no speak of armed conflict with our government. We were speaking of a hypothetical scenario about government firearms confiscation. I for one am not inciting armed insurrection.

INGunGuy

Hypothetical or not, it won't be tolerated.

 

[INGunGuy]

I shot my Mosin Nagant this weekend and I would really hate to see what it would do to flesh...I was simply amazed how much power those rounds have.

I have been looking into buying a Mosin or 4, cheap to shoot, really accurate VERY powerful.

INGunGuy

 

[INGunGuy]

Hypothetical or not, it won't be tolerated.

OK, I am sorry if any of my previous posts seemed to skirt the line or even cross said line. That was not my intention. I do believe in the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared" so about that, we should all be prepared in whatever we do. We care a spare tire in the truck so we can be prepared. We have flashlights, candles, matches, radio, water, gas, etc etc etc so we can be prepared. So, with that, I am finished and hope that everyone else will be prepared.

INGunGuy

 

[Denny347]

It would also be nicer if those same people, (LEO's, military and what have you's) were members of the Oath Keepers and had signed on to their 10 Orders We Will Not Obey. Otherwise lots of people would be likely to get hurt or die with piles of brass around their feet.

We already swore an oath to defend the State/Federal Constitution. I do not see anything that is in Oath Keepers that would fall outside the oath I already took.

 

[Arm America]

Well, what if we have no guns to confiscate.
Is it illegal to sell a gun for a dollar?
You buy mine,
I buy yours,
that friend of yours bought my old ones,
my friend bought your old ones,
you spelled my last name wrong,
I wrote your name down wrong,
and we all traded back to what we originally had.
Its all legal,
(there is a paper trail which is not required)
On paper, I no longer own any firearms.
On my insurance coverage,
whats under my roof is covered regardless of ownership, unless reported stolen.

 

[j706]

OMG!!!! I was actually starting to like this site. It has become apparent to me that there are some real goofballs on here! Hypothetical my ass!! Some of you hope that something like that happens. Not enough excitement in your lives or what?

Moderator-Please cancel my membership and delete any reference of me having joined this site if possible. I cannot,I will not be a part of anything that condones this type of foolishness.