Gun Debate at Work

[ParaManAR15]

So I'm out of state right now working with a group of guys and one of which I've never met before. The other day while at lunch me and another guy were on the topic of guns and out of no where...the guy I don't even know just starts going off on how no one needs to own an "Assault Rifle" or a "clip" with 30 rds. I proceeded to tell him that I own an AR-15 and have plenty of 30 rd magazines and even a few 45 rounders. I tried asking what his reasoning behind his opinion was but he then attempted to pretend like he didn't hear me, and started talking to another guy. So I just left it alone and went back to eating my lunch.

Now comes today...Once again me and a couple other guys are talking about guns, one of them was asking me questions about .30-06's and once again he started ranting about no one needing "Assault Rifles" and 30 rd "clips". To make a long story short...I tried telling him that a gun ban won't work, look what happened the last time they tried it and crime rates didn't get any better...Columbine happened during the last ban. I continued to throw stats and information at him and every time I told him something he would put one arm in the air and just hold it up while walking around in a circle (don't ask me why he did that, I have no idea) telling me that it was a BS argument. This guy would just not listen to a single word I had to say, just kept coming back with the same thing "no one needs an assault rifle and 30 rd clips" with no valid point to his argument.

Any one else had a gun debate at work? Anyone tried educating someone that just wouldn't listen? Any tips on trying to talk to someone like this guy?

 

[marcweid]

I have the same problem.

 

[Spike_351]

Nope, everone I work with seems pretty partial to firearms, jus tell him if he does not have an intelligent response to STFU and mind his own buisness.

 

[Lock load]

Fortunately almost everybody I know is pro gun or the ones that aren't pro gun, don't speak out.

All you can do is stay calm and make reasoned arguments.
You will never be able to change some peoples minds.
Some people think that gun owners by nature are unstable.
You can remain calm and show them that we aren't.

 

[DKY197]

A man after Diane Feinstein's own heart.

 

[88GT]

Two problems I see. He has formed an opinion based on emotion and can't be swayed with fact. His premise (a requisite "need" for firearms ownership) is what you should be attacking, not his position (opposition to firearms).

The reality is that you probably won't make any headway. The fact that he is in the camp of emotions-not-fact means he has a vested interest in maintaining that position. He benefits by it in some way. To admit that he was incorrect probably risks shaking his whole worldview. Most people can't deal with that.

 

[Libertarian01]

ParaManAR15,

An argument is a collection of components, or premises, that then becomes an inference that should lead to a conclusion.

In every inference there should be two (2) components: a truth component and a logic component. For a statement to be reasonably true both components must be true.

For example: I put ten (10) blue marbles in a jar. These are the only items in the jar. With no cheating I argue that the next marble pulled out of the jar will be blue. The "ten (10) blue marbles in the jar" is a fact component. The "next marble pulled from the jar will be blue" is the logic component. Is my logic sound? In this case yes. Without any cheating a jar with ten (10) blue marbles will only have a blue marble pulled from it.

Most arguments are based upon degrees of truth and not absolutes. There are very, very few absolutes and if you bring quantum physics into the discussion maybe (?) none.

Here is an example of a strong, cogent inference without being absolute: A .44 magnum is more powerful than a .22 long rifle. A person who is shot with a .22 will always be less injured than a person shot with a .44 magnum. This is clearly not true by using the word "always." A person shot with a .44 magnum may be only grazed and suffer a minor cut while a person could be shot dead on in the back of the skull with a .22 long rifle and killed instantly. It is probable that a .44 magnum will do more damage than a .22, but not 100%.

So, in your coworkers argument we should look at his facts and his logic to see if he is holding water. The reality is that he is not using any facts. NONE. Zero. His argument is based entirely on emotion.

If we now know this how do you combat it? In my question is a premise, that being we/you "will or need" to combat it. Some would say just ignore him. I would respectfully argue against this, for if we allow the other coworkers to be influenced soley by emotion then they may use their energy to attempt to achieve the same goal as the instigator, and I do not believe that is good.

Getting back to how to combat it. I would submit to begin asking questions, very simple questions. The nature of the discussion and your presence there will direct you to the proper questions to ask. In the end, your goal with the questions is to illuminate for your coworkers that he has no idea what he is talking about. They will then draw their own conclusions that while they may(?) not like firearms this guy has no clue what he is talking about and can be ignored.

Another way is to attack him with humor. Don't be afraid to nicely ridicule him. I do mean nicely because IF you are not nice THEN you become the badguy and the coworkers may not take you seriously. The next time he wants to walk in a circle with his hand up ask him, point blank, "Do you know how ridiculous you look right now?" And I mean that as a serious question!!! Don't let go of that. Don't let go. DO NOT LET GO of that question. Hammer him, nicely, until he responds to the question: "Do you know how ridiculous you look walking in circles with your hand up? Where did you learn that, in the third grade?" Perhaps by forcing him to confront his own emotional reaction you will shut him down OR make him foolish to his coworkers who will then begin to just ignore him and his ideas.

I do not intend meanness or cruelty to someone but we must always challenge people who want to make arguments based entirely on emotions. Not because emotions are bad, but because they do not lead us to meaningful conclusions when making important decisions. When we make important decisions they should be based upon facts and use logic to guide us to the best decision possible. Our emotions drove us to want to reach for the stars, but it was facts, science, and logic that actually put boots on the moon.

There are billions of things we all have that we don't "need." Books, decorations, paintings, family heirlooms. All completely unnecessary for the continuation of life, yet all just as important as food, clothing and shelter. Each unnecessary thing brings value and meaning to one persons life.

It isn't the guns, magazines, ammunition nor rate of fire that is important. Those things are trivial. What is truly important is the IDEAS and VALUES we hold dear. That all people are equal. That all people have the right to defend themselves from any aggressor. That all people have the right to speak and be heard. That all people have the right to find God or the nonexistence of God in their own way. That all people have the right to a private space that no one else may enter.

If we hold the premise that "all people have the right to defend themselves from malice" then the logical conclusion is that all people have the right to own all the tools they may need to do that.

Regards,

Doug

 

[38special]

Facts do little to convince people who want to believe something.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

You're not having a "debate" there, you're just talking at someone who's decided to accept his opinion whole from somewhere, with neither thought nor support. Contrary facts and logic are meaningless, as no facts or logic were used in the formulation of the opinion to begin with. It's just scripture to him. Might have to write that one off for your own sanity.

 

[Cemetery-man]

It seems anymore that people only believe what they see and hear from the media. When you try to talk common sense they turn a deaf ear and refer to what they saw on TV. It gets so frustrating.

 

[Tinner666]

I ran into two of those guys at a McDonalds one morning. Both were totally anti. I just stayed polite.
Then I asked "Just suppose an idiot walked in here right now and started shooting. The PD is only 10 minutes away and he's just standing there shooting, what's going to happen?
Their eyes got wider as I pointed out how vulnerable we were. After some more stuttering, I said that if it really happened, I'd pop the guy as long as I wasn't the first target and got taken out first.
After that sunk in, their eyes got wider, but then they started discussing carry and large magazines more intelligently. In the end, they turned completely around on their views.

You have to lead the conversation sometimes.

 

[OWGEM]

Jonathan Swift once said, you cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into.

 

[mike63502]

Nice job. It is fairly rare that they would actually listen. Most of the time their minds are already made up based on liberal media and they have no desire to actually hear what you are saying.

 

[mike63502]

YoU cannot have a rational discussion using facts, intellect or reason with someone who is unreasonable and does not care what you have to say.

 

[straid]

Any one else had a gun debate at work? Anyone tried educating someone that just wouldn't listen? Any tips on trying to talk to someone like this guy?

Gun debates at work? Not a chance. The best advice I can give on the topic is not to discuss guns at work at all. Not a single person I work with knows I own, shoot or possess any knowledge of guns at all and I have absolutely no need to get roped into those discussions when they do take place. And they do take place quite often. There's no benefit to me whatsoever in letting that cat out of the bag. You become the crazy person with a gun to the anti-gun colleagues and the go-to guy to the pro-gun crowd, having millions of conversations about them all the time. I've seen it happen and have to laugh and shake my head at the same time.

As to the other thing. You cannot convince someone dead-set against guns into being a pro-gun person and you shouldn't even try. It's a fool's mission and it's 100% guaranteed to fail. You cannot reason with them, because their opposition is not based upon reason, but rather emotions and fear. You cannot reason with emotions. Every married guy knows that. There's no benefit in trying to "convert" someone. None.

The thing that turns anti-gunners into pro-gunners, is having a life-altering moment with someone intent on doing them harm. It happened just recently that a family decided to get a gun when a thug came into their house and threatened the lives of their kids and their lives as well. It's amazing how quickly someone's convictions can change when their very survival depends on it. That seems to be the only thing that makes an impact.

 

[daddymikey1975]

It isn't the guns, magazines, ammunition nor rate of fire that is important. Those things are trivial. What is truly important is the IDEAS and VALUES we hold dear. That all people are equal. That all people have the right to defend themselves from any aggressor. That all people have the right to speak and be heard. That all people have the right to find God or the nonexistence of God in their own way. That all people have the right to a private space that no one else may enter.

I just plastered this part all over facebook. I attributed it to "Doug".. Hopefully it's ok.. Very strong and to the point my friend.

 

[spec4]

The workplace is not where you want to have these discussions. No good can come of it. I used to work for a company that had thousands of employees. It wasn't hard to determine the ones to have minimal contact with. Things eventually got so PC it became difficult to say anything about anything. Bottom line; you're there to earn a living, nothing more.

 

[j4jenk]

So I'm out of state right now working with a group of guys and one of which I've never met before. The other day while at lunch me and another guy were on the topic of guns and out of no where...the guy I don't even know just starts going off on how no one needs to own an "Assault Rifle" or a "clip" with 30 rds. I proceeded to tell him that I own an AR-15 and have plenty of 30 rd magazines and even a few 45 rounders. I tried asking what his reasoning behind his opinion was but he then attempted to pretend like he didn't hear me, and started talking to another guy. So I just left it alone and went back to eating my lunch.

Now comes today...Once again me and a couple other guys are talking about guns, one of them was asking me questions about .30-06's and once again he started ranting about no one needing "Assault Rifles" and 30 rd "clips". To make a long story short...I tried telling him that a gun ban won't work, look what happened the last time they tried it and crime rates didn't get any better...Columbine happened during the last ban. I continued to throw stats and information at him and every time I told him something he would put one arm in the air and just hold it up while walking around in a circle (don't ask me why he did that, I have no idea) telling me that it was a BS argument. This guy would just not listen to a single word I had to say, just kept coming back with the same thing "no one needs an assault rifle and 30 rd clips" with no valid point to his argument.

Any one else had a gun debate at work? Anyone tried educating someone that just wouldn't listen? Any tips on trying to talk to someone like this guy?

Maybe he was just trying out his Piers Morgan impersonations for you.

 

[LarryC]

The workplace is not where you want to have these discussions. No good can come of it. I used to work for a company that had thousands of employees. It wasn't hard to determine the ones to have minimal contact with. Things eventually got so PC it became difficult to say anything about anything. Bottom line; you're there to earn a living, nothing more.

Don't know about that, several years ago, I took a smoke break outside the plant where I worked as an Engineer. One of the ladies from the office was sitting on a bench and we started a discussion. Don't remember how guns came up, but the subject did. She stated no one should own guns. I remarked that I owned a few, and said - you know, I really enjoy target shooting and also feel safer having one for self defense. But you might be right. However, it is illegal for any felon to possess a firearm now, but they still have them. Passing a law to make them illegal would only take mine - not theirs. Then you and I would be even more likely to be robbed, raped or shot. If you can tell me how we get rid of all the guns and weapons in the world - I would give mine up. She sat for a few minutes and said -"I never thought about it like that, your right".

 

[churchmouse]

Un-less I am backed into a corner with stupidity I do my best to avoid these conversations as my work environment is that of an outside contractor. I go to a lot of different businesses. Some office environments (libs galore) and some factory/warehouse areas. If I know someone well enough we will discuss the current state of affairs. If just casual with the locals i say nothing as you can not fix stupid. I will not make myself a target ever again....aint happening. To much "PC" to overcome. The libs have blanketed themselves with "PC" and are well protected by it.