Gun-free zones and how to regulate them (threadjack from controlling bleeding)

[IndyDave1776]

So you can't think of any other rights you'd like prisons and jails to observe for your convenience? Surely you're not short sighted. Why not abolish secure areas, and let people have the run of the place?

You're really showing your true colors. You are building a false dichotomy in the insistence that one either supports anarchy or disregard of the Constitution at the government's pleasure. Again, you appear to fall squarely on the side of the expansion of government and its designated 'special ones' at the expense of the citizens and the integrity of the republic.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You're really showing your true colors. You are building a false dichotomy in the insistence that one either supports anarchy or disregard of the Constitution at the government's pleasure. Again, you appear to fall squarely on the side of the expansion of government and its designated 'special ones' at the expense of the citizens and the integrity of the republic.

AGAIN ill ask, what other rights do you want to express at this prison so you can be accommodated? Right now, I'm proving how limited your knowledge of the Constitution is. That, or illustrating you're an anarchist.
If anyone is expansionist, it's you. You want to have your little "Constitutional spaces" anywhere government does business. Which rights do you deem necessary to provided areas for, just a few? One? All? I would guess all. I find it sad that you choose to pick up this issue, despite not having the relevant knowledge to thoroughly support your argument. Govt IS NOT bound to provide support for all rights in every place it exists.... it's not only impractical, but absolutely, completely, ridiculous. Seriously bro, you Constitutional scholarship is filled with catchy phrases, feel good beliefs, and marching slogans.... and yet, it's completely devoid of historical understanding and intent. I think you need to start with Thomas Paine, and work yourself up the latter of the documents which created this nation, the men who did it, the factions they supported, and the compromises they made.

Kut (is convinced you're not well enough versed on this subject)

 

[2A_Tom]

Anyone who thinks constitutional rights are absolute, haven't the slightest understand of said document. I am thankful, your outlook is fringe. It's fringe because you focus on ONE single right, and ignore the others, as if there is some hierarchy of rights. I imagine that in order to be consistent, you probably believe citizens should be allowed walk on military posts and demonstrate on runways about "flying death machines." Or maybe you're a supporter of the Occupy Movement, and believe in the absolute right to assemble wherever one desires, as long as it's not privately held personal property. If you don't then you're a hypocrite. The Constitution wasn't written in crayon. It's an intelligent document which also is practical. You can sit at home and live out your anarchist dream, but when you step outside you enter the real world. I suggest you put more time and effort in studying the Constitution, besides simple focusing on the 2nd, and expecting that the rest of the document takes a back seat to that.

Kut (is tired of "only the second amendment matters" argument)

I am sick of this thread jack and your disdain toward us poens.

Our rightd are NOT Constitutional.

Our rights are GOD given and unalienable. We have the God given unalienable right to self defense. The fact that evil men have seen fit to infringe upon our rights is moot.

We as law abiding citizens are forced (at gun point) to abide these abuses of power which yuo support, but we don't have to like it.

We certainly don't have to shut up.

This is a second ammendment site. If the kitchen is steamy you can wipe your brow or...

BTW. Check out California Senate Bill 1146. http://thefederalist.com/2016/06/21/california-bill-would-ultimately-erase-religious-schools/

Also the government is pushing for more power to warrantless surveillance. https://www.justsecurity.org/30699/fbis-warrantless-surveillance-door-opened-wider/

 

[Kutnupe14]

Iam sick of this thread jack and your disdain toward us poens.

Our rightd are NOT Constitutional.

Our rights are GOD given and unalienable. We have the God given unalienable right to self defense. The fact that evil men have seen fit to infringe upon our rights is moot.

We as law abiding citizens are forced (at gun point) to abide these abuses of power which yuo support, but we don't have to like it.

We certainly don't have to shut up.

I have disdain for ignorance. If you're a self-described peon, I could care less. How about you have a talk with your god (because obviously it isn't the God of Abraham), and get back to me to which rights your god has given to you.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Kut,

This is pretty simple stuff. You asked what other rights we should accommodate for non inmates at a prison. I'll counter by asking what other rights of the non inmate are infringed for miles and hours outside the prison? Let's use an example prison 60 miles from where a family lives. We're talking about an hour of drive time each way, more or less.
When that family member leaves home, there is no infringement on his/her rights of religion, speech, press, or assembly, nor restriction on petition (the latter of which, as I said earlier, SCOTUS has defined as close to absolute as possible. Going to visit a family member does not require quartering of troops, nor search and seizure *upon leaving one's home*. You don't have to give up your right against self incrimination (I don't have info that this has been decided, but I can't think how that one isn't absolute either) You don't give up speedy, nor public trials, nor the right to a jury if you need one. You don't have to accept cruel, or for that matter, unusual punishment. Getting into the penumbra, you don't have to void your right of privacy any more than you do by going to The grocery store.
Because of the laws, you cannot as a non-LEO, even have a firearm in the car without committing a crime, thus, the citizen is made to choose whether to exercise the right of travel OR the right to defend his/her life while doing so. How can you possibly define that as just, in this or any other reality?

Oh, and to clarify that this is not a 2A only thing, if I missed a right, please do tell me, along with how it is infringed prior to arrival at the prison for the visit.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

[STRIKE]Oh, and I'll be moving the thread jack out of this thread in a bit.[/STRIKE]

Done

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kut,

This is pretty simple stuff. You asked what other rights we should accommodate for non inmates at a prison. I'll counter by asking what other rights of the non inmate are infringed for miles and hours outside the prison? Let's use an example prison 60 miles from where a family lives. We're talking about an hour of drive time each way, more or less.
When that family member leaves home, there is no infringement on his/her rights of religion, speech, press, or assembly, nor restriction on petition (the latter of which, as I said earlier, SCOTUS has defined as close to absolute as possible. Going to visit a family member does not require quartering of troops, nor search and seizure *upon leaving one's home*. You don't have to give up your right against self incrimination (I don't have info that this has been decided, but I can't think how that one isn't absolute either) You don't give up speedy, nor public trials, nor the right to a jury if you need one. You don't have to accept cruel, or for that matter, unusual punishment. Getting into the penumbra, you don't have to void your right of privacy any more than you do by going to The grocery store.
Because of the laws, you cannot as a non-LEO, even have a firearm in the car without committing a crime, thus, the citizen is made to choose whether to exercise the right of travel OR the right to defend his/her life while doing so. How can you possibly define that as just, in this or any other reality?

Oh, and to clarify that this is not a 2A only thing, if I missed a right, please do tell me, along with how it is infringed prior to arrival at the prison for the visit.

Blessings,
Bill

How about the prison provide rooms for anybody to procreate, or dressing rooms for privacy, or maybe a chapel to get married to the prisoner of choice. Or maybe a building a voting precinct on the prison grounds. Or maybe you should be allowed to travel anywhere within the prison you'd like? Convince me why the aforementioned aren't just as entitled to accommodations as the 2nd?

 

[bwframe]

FIFY... ...Kut (is tired of the second amendment )

Of course, anyone paying attention on this gun owner forum already has picked up on this fact.

 

[Bill of Rights]

How about the prison provide rooms for anybody to procreate, or dressing rooms for privacy, or maybe a chapel to get married to the prisoner of choice. Or maybe a building a voting precinct on the prison grounds. Or maybe you should be allowed to travel anywhere within the prison you'd like? Convince me why the aforementioned aren't just as entitled to accommodations as the 2nd?

When you are an inmate, you have had or are in the middle of "due process of law", which is required, Constitutionally, to allow for the infringement of God-given rights (as detailed in out Declaration of Independence, just to address the "your god" phrase you used before... He's the same God our Founders worshipped.)

Do not most prisons have a chapel? Is there reason for non-inmates to change clothes? You are, as mentioned, building straw men, though, and what I asked was about the infringement of rights prior to arrival at the prison, for free citizens.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Coach]

Is there anything more frustrating that one who claims a depth of knowledge and has none?

Who on this forum thinks that the 2nd amendment is the only one that matters? Who on this forum thinks that any other amendment does not matter?

 

[Joniki]

For many years I have struggled with the fact that gubement employees are exempt from the very laws they write and enforce. If a LEO can carry in a school then I should be able to as well.

Gun free zones are simply killing fields......

 

[youngda9]

So much to work with here...

First, your arguments give the appearance of some lack of understanding of the balances behind delegated authority. Law enforcement done right is a delicate balance of having certain elements of authority as a tool of performing a public service without allowing it to become a position of arbitrary power. It all comes down to the understanding that it is the use of power that belongs to the citizens as delegated for certain purposes, and not power in and arbitrary or self-existent sense. Once it becomes that, you live in a totalitarian society, not a free republic. No, your building a straw man argument that if I don't agree with law enforcement approaching me with the attitude that I will comply because you're god and I'm not, that doesn't make me an anarchist or suggest that I would eliminate law enforcement completely. As Bill pointed out, there is no defensible reason why a non-criminal should be forced to travel unarmed by virtue of being in the general geographic location of a detention facility. If we are paying for the building, there is not reason why a reasonable accommodation cannot be made for the exercise of a CONSTITUTION RIGHT, not what makes your tummy feel good, but a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

Second, the founders leave me with the impression that if they meant what you believe they do, then the Second Amendment would have said so, or at least there would be some historical record of that as a prevailing opinion.

Third, given that we have some wonderful inventions for providing a safe disarming area like bulletproof glass, it would not be terribly difficult to establish a metal detector and disarming room in the entry path to a facility. As it is now, a person could walk in armed and attack several staff and most of the administration in many facilities before encountering a hardened entry into the core facility. As demonstrated in the construction of may newer county jails, it is entirely possible to keep visitors in an isolated environment in which they could effectively be prevented from unauthorized interaction with staff and inmate alike. The reason comes down to 'we don't feel like doing that'.

Fourth, I find it telling that you would reduce the argument to absurdities and the suggestion that sounds as if you are saying that if I don't accept law enforcement as overlords, then I obviously favor the complete abolition of law enforcement.

Not getting into a point-by-point circle-jerk. Just stopped in do drop this off:

[h=3]The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment[/h]
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

---

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

---

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

---

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights

---

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

---

[h=3]The Founding Fathers on Arms[/h]
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

---

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

---

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

---

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

---

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

---

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

---

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

---

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8

---

[h=3]The Founding Fathers on Maintaining Freedom[/h]
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

---

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer

---

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
Edmund Burke
British Statesman, 1784

---

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison

---

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman

---

[h=3]Later Quotes on Gun Control[/h]
"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake."
Malcolm Wallop
former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)

---

"An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject."
Anon.
Seen on a bumper sticker

---

[h=3]Pro Gun Control[/h]
"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

---

"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things." "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
--- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.​

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.​

The thoughtful reader may wonder, why wasn't Jefferson's proposal of "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms" adopted by the Virginia legislature? Click here to learn why.

[O]ne loves to possess arms, tho they hope never to have occasion for them.
--- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.​

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.​

To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
---Alexander Hamilton​

Quotes from the Founders During the Ratification Period of the Constitution

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.​

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)​

John Adams recognizes the fundamental right of citizens, as individuals, to defend themselves with arms, however he states militias must be controlled by government and the rule of law. To have otherwise is to invite anarchy.
The material and commentary that follows is excerpted from Halbrook, Stephen P. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment". Originally published as 26 Val. U. L.Rev. 131-207, 1991.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).​

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.​

During the Massachusetts ratifying convention William Symmes warned that the new government at some point "shall be too firmly fixed in the saddle to be overthrown by anything but a general insurrection." Yet fears of standing armies were groundless, affirmed Theodore Sedwick, who queried, "if raised, whether they could subdue a nation of freemen, who know how to prize liberty, and who have arms in their hands?"

[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it.
---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.​

The Virginia ratifying convention met from June 2 through June 26, 1788. Edmund Pendleton, opponent of a bill of rights, weakly argued that abuse of power could be remedied by recalling the delegated powers in a convention. Patrick Henry shot back that the power to resist oppression rests upon the right to possess arms:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.​

Henry sneered,

O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone...Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation...inflicted by those who had no power at all?​

More quotes from the Virginia convention:

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
---George Mason​

Zacharia Johnson argued that the new Constitution could never result in religious persecution or other oppression because:

[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.​

The Virginia delegation's recommended bill of rights included the following:

That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. ​

The following quote is from Halbrook, Stephen P., That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right, University of New Mexico Press, 1984.

The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.
---Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Papers, 2. ​

Gallatin's use of the words "some rights," doesn't mean some of the rights in the Bill of Rights, rather there are many rights not enumerated by the Bill of Rights, those rights that are listed are being established as unalienable.

Roger Sherman, during House consideration of a militia bill (1790):

[C]onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular states, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend, by force of arms, their rights, when invaded.
14 Debates in the House of Representatives, ed. Linda Grand De Pauw. (Balt., Johns Hopkins Univ. Press, 1972), 92-3.​

 

[Kutnupe14]

When you are an inmate, you have had or are in the middle of "due process of law", which is required, Constitutionally, to allow for the infringement of God-given rights (as detailed in out Declaration of Independence, just to address the "your god" phrase you used before... He's the same God our Founders worshipped.)

Do not most prisons have a chapel? Is there reason for non-inmates to change clothes? You are, as mentioned, building straw men, though, and what I asked was about the infringement of rights prior to arrival at the prison, for free citizens.

Blessings,
Bill

I'm not talking about the inmates. I'm talking about the people visiting the prison. Explain where's the straw man. I'll further note, my original premise, is that there are places where it is perfectly acceptable to ban guns. In my opinion, that comment is fairly well understood, but since "outside" is technically a "place," apparently, I should be been more clear. How about this. The are some places where "inside," it is perfectly acceptable to ban guns, or restrict one's other natural rights.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Not getting into a point-by-point circle-jerk. Just stopped in do drop this off:

The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment


"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

---

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

---

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

---

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights

---

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

---

The Founding Fathers on Arms


"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

---

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine

---

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788

---

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

---

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot

---

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

---

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

---

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8

---

The Founding Fathers on Maintaining Freedom


"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

---

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer

---

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
Edmund Burke
British Statesman, 1784

---

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison

---

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman

---

Later Quotes on Gun Control


"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake."
Malcolm Wallop
former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)

---

"An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject."
Anon.
Seen on a bumper sticker

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Pro Gun Control


"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.

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"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things." "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
--- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.​

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.​

The thoughtful reader may wonder, why wasn't Jefferson's proposal of "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms" adopted by the Virginia legislature? Click here to learn why.

[O]ne loves to possess arms, tho they hope never to have occasion for them.
--- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.​

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.​

To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
---Alexander Hamilton​

Quotes from the Founders During the Ratification Period of the Constitution

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.​

To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws.
---John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)​

John Adams recognizes the fundamental right of citizens, as individuals, to defend themselves with arms, however he states militias must be controlled by government and the rule of law. To have otherwise is to invite anarchy.
The material and commentary that follows is excerpted from Halbrook, Stephen P. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment". Originally published as 26 Val. U. L.Rev. 131-207, 1991.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).​

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.​

During the Massachusetts ratifying convention William Symmes warned that the new government at some point "shall be too firmly fixed in the saddle to be overthrown by anything but a general insurrection." Yet fears of standing armies were groundless, affirmed Theodore Sedwick, who queried, "if raised, whether they could subdue a nation of freemen, who know how to prize liberty, and who have arms in their hands?"

[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it.
---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.​

The Virginia ratifying convention met from June 2 through June 26, 1788. Edmund Pendleton, opponent of a bill of rights, weakly argued that abuse of power could be remedied by recalling the delegated powers in a convention. Patrick Henry shot back that the power to resist oppression rests upon the right to possess arms:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.​

Henry sneered,

O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone...Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation...inflicted by those who had no power at all?​

More quotes from the Virginia convention:

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor...
---George Mason​

Zacharia Johnson argued that the new Constitution could never result in religious persecution or other oppression because:

[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.​

The Virginia delegation's recommended bill of rights included the following:

That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. ​

The following quote is from Halbrook, Stephen P., That Every Man Be Armed: The Evolution of a Constitutional Right, University of New Mexico Press, 1984.

The whole of that Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals...t establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.
---Albert Gallatin to Alexander Addison, Oct 7, 1789, MS. in N.Y. Hist. Soc.-A.G. Papers, 2. ​

Gallatin's use of the words "some rights," doesn't mean some of the rights in the Bill of Rights, rather there are many rights not enumerated by the Bill of Rights, those rights that are listed are being established as unalienable.

Roger Sherman, during House consideration of a militia bill (1790):

[C]onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular states, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend, by force of arms, their rights, when invaded.
14 Debates in the House of Representatives, ed. Linda Grand De Pauw. (Balt., Johns Hopkins Univ. Press, 1972), 92-3.​

Hey another guy focused on a single right. Care to address some other rights?
Oh, and one other nugget I'll throw in. Therere is limit within the text of the second amendment. "Well Regulated," if that wasn't intended as a limit, why include it at all?

Kut (waits for the various definitions of "well regulated."

 

[2A_Tom]

Hey another guy focused on a single right. Care to address some other rights?
Oh, and one other nugget I'll throw in. Therere is limit within the text of the second amendment. "Well Regulated," if that wasn't intended as a limit, why include it at all?

Kut (waits for the various definitions of "well regulated."

I did in my last post, there are many other important topics, however this thread pertains to guns. Some want to talk about changing rooms and chapels to obfuscate the issue. Some try sticking to the topic and are called one issue.

What 1st amendment forum are you a member of? Do you belong to a third amendment group?

I am endevering to act as obtuse as you seem to be affecting.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I did in my last post, there are many other important topics, however this thread pertains to guns. Some want to talk about changing rooms and chapels to obfuscate the issue. Some try sticking to the topic and are called one issue.

What 1st amendment forum are you a member of? Do you belong to a third amendment group?

I am endevering to act as obtuse as you seem to be affecting.

You did? I just saw a handful.

There's a method to my madness. In case my point has been muddled, ill try to explain. The argument is that some want prisons to make accommodations for their Second Amendment rights. I'm asking why stop at that right? Shouldn't the government be forced to accommodate for all others? Or is this a "pick and choose," type of thing? For the absolutists, I don't see how you can support one, and not all. So I'm asking, where is the line drawn?

 

[MCgrease08]

Hey another guy focused on a single right. Care to address some other rights?
Oh, and one other nugget I'll throw in. Therere is limit within the text of the second amendment. "Well Regulated," if that wasn't intended as a limit, why include it at all?

Kut (waits for the various definitions of "well regulated."

Sorry Kut. Through the entire thread you at least had my ear and some respect for your position, but not after this.

I know you like to be difficult just for kicks, but c'mon. This is just a bad Facebook comment my looney aunt would post.

I know you're better than this.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Sorry Kut. Through the entire thread you at least had my ear and some respect for your position, but not after this.

I know you like to be difficult just for kicks, but c'mon. This is just a bad Facebook comment my looney aunt would post.

I know you're better than this.

Well, why not chime in. Let us have a discussion concerning this topic.

How many amendments did the signed Constitution originally contain?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Well, why not chime in. Let us have a discussion concerning this topic.

How many amendments did the signed Constitution originally contain?

Well perhaps ill have this discussion by myself.
None, there were no amendments to the Constitution, originally, hence why the BoRs are called "amendments." So that begs the question were the founders ignorant of the concept of rights until just prior of the addition of the BoRs? I think I can safely say, without any opposition, no.

So why were the BoRs added?

 

[Kutnupe14]

The BoRs were added upon the insistence of the Anti-Federalists, a group of people who feared the power of federal government. The group that opposed them, the Federalists, did not believe a BoRs was needed, because, to them, it was obvious that the Constitution protected such individual rights; However, the Anti-Federalists would have none of it. So, the Federalist acquiesced, and added SOME of the BoRs we currently know... but there was one that was conspicuously absent.