Gun show loophole closing?

[AndreusMaximus]

This. Every question I've seen in this thread related to the application of the new rule is answered here.

500-page PDF's are scary, though.

Like HoughMade sade, skip to page 452. I think the most relevant paragraph that answers the main question everyone is asking, is right here:

§ 478.13 Definition of “engaged in the business as a dealer in firearms other than a
gunsmith or a pawnbroker.”
(a) Definition. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in
firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominantly earn a profit through
the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. The term shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a
personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of the person’s personal
collection of firearms. In addition, the term shall not include an auctioneer who provides
only auction services on commission to assist in liquidating firearms at an estate-type
auction; provided, that the auctioneer does not purchase the firearms, or take possession
of the firearms for sale on consignment

Also relevant:

(d) Predominantly earn a profit. (1) Definition. The intent underlying the sale or
disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining pecuniary gain, as opposed to
other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection

Also relevant, but somehow I couldn't find any references in the linked document (just an oversight I'm sure):

 

[MCgrease08]

I would urge those concerned to read the rule, NOT the reporting about it.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download

Skip to page 452

The fact that a "rule" put out by an enforcement agency approaches close to 500 pages demonstrates the absurdity of the whole thing.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

The fact that a "rule" put out by an enforcement agency approaches close to 500 pages demonstrates the absurdity of the whole thing.

In fairness, most of the (nearly) 500 pages are the comments and responses to comments section, from what I could tell. The rule itself doesn't start until near the end.

 

[HoughMade]

In fairness, most of the (nearly) 500 pages are the comments and responses to comments section, from what I could tell. The rule itself doesn't start until near the end.

Page 452....I heard somewhere.

 

[loudgroove]

Well I'm sure they put in a "loophole" or two that will benefit their agenda.

 

[HoughMade]

Well I'm sure they put in a "loophole" or two that will benefit their agenda.

They did. Check out what's not included in the definition of "Personal collection". Page 455.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Page 452....I heard somewhere.

You mean a governmental agency would churn a file for hundreds upon hundred of billable hours to copy the old rule by addition redundant pages just so some politician can come out and say he did something about an unproven problem.

I. Am. Shocked.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

They did. Check out what's not included in the definition of "Personal collection". Page 455.

How . . . how does one enforce that?

 

[HoughMade]

How . . . how does one enforce that?

The whole thing looks like a big waste of money and largely unenforceable to me. They still have to prove a violation of 18 USC sec. 922(a)(1)(A). To the extent the new rule restates the case law it's a waste. To the extent they are trying to "force" a court to use its definition of "engaging in business" which makes things illegal that court previously found not violation...good luck. This isn't like a new law with brand new regulations. This is a 56 year old law with plenty of case law telling us what "engaging in business" is and is not.

But hey "we closed the gun show loophole" gets into the news for idiots to consume (including, apparently, "The Indiana Lawyer").

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

At least now that the gunshow loophole has been fixed, now they can set about fixing the gender pay gap.

 

[HoughMade]

At least now that the gunshow loophole has been fixed, now they can set about fixing the gender pay gap.

Have I got some good news for you on both issues....

 

[actaeon277]

fixing the gender pay gap.

We'll start by putting some feminists on an oil rig

 

[Hkindiana]

At least now that the gunshow loophole has been fixed, now they can set about fixing the gender pay gap.

Which of the 248 genders?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The whole thing looks like a big waste of money and largely unenforceable to me. They still have to prove a violation of 18 USC sec. 922(a)(1)(A). To the extent the new rule restates the case law it's a waste. To the extent they are trying to "force" a court to use its definition of "engaging in business" which makes things illegal that court previously found not violation...good luck. This isn't like a new law with brand new regulations. This is a 56 year old law with plenty of case law telling us what "engaging in business" is and is not.

But hey "we closed the gun show loophole" gets into the news for idiots to consume (including, apparently, "The Indiana Lawyer").

Yes, I get all my gun legal news from the Chamber of Commerce/White Shoes in Indianapolis that is the audience for the Indiana Lawyer, aka "Carmel meets Westfield and approve of each other, but no one else", giving awards to each other.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Just read the write up in "Indiana Lawyer". Did they just copy the Biden Administration e-mail?

 

[HoughMade]

Just read the write up in "Indiana Lawyer". Did they just copy the Biden Administration e-mail?

Pretty much.

 

[I Invented the Internet]

Are the ones that still take 11 to 12 months to go through, going into this "round up list" also?

Not from where I'm sitting. I resubmitted a previously denied form 4 last October and I'm still waiting.

 

[Ziggidy]

I have a gun or two in my safe that have been there for more than 20 years.
By this law, if I can't make a profit, I have to sell them at 20 year old prices?

Intent? If you are just selling at market value, is it your intent to make a profit?

I would think that a sale would be similar to silver / gold sales between people. If just selling to a friend at market value and just so happens the market value is higher than what you paid, well, good for you. Now if you wish to add something like $2.00 over spot, well, that IMO is an intentional profit.

If you are adding value over and above the market value, well, that is indeed selling for a profit. If not adding a dollar, then it’s just a sale at fair market value.

If you buy at wholesale and sell at retail….well, 4473 is a must.

Dats how I see it.

 

[Mgderf]

Intent? If you are just selling at market value, is it your intent to make a profit?

I would think that a sale would be similar to silver / gold sales between people. If just selling to a friend at market value and just so happens the market value is higher than what you paid, well, good for you. Now if you wish to add something like $2.00 over spot, well, that IMO is an intentional profit.

If you are adding value over and above the market value, well, that is indeed selling for a profit. If not adding a dollar, then it’s just a sale at fair market value.

If you buy at wholesale and sell at retail….well, 4473 is a must.

Dats how I see it.

I'm just playing devils advocate.
I just don't trust the federal government to do what they say.

 

[DadSmith]

Biden Moves to Expand Licensing Requirements for Used Gun Sellers

The ATF is set to publish a new rule expanding who needs to obtain a federal license before selling firearms on the secondhand market.

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