Indeed. I would think one might get a glimpse just by watching the video posted by jdhaines. Its pretty clear he isn't in control of the situation for the majority of the time. He's off balance, usually using both hands just to (barely) minimize the number of stab wounds he's sustaining, and it takes him several seconds to achieve a position where he wouldn't get completely overwhelmed if he tied up one hand to reach for a weapon.
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Gun v Knife experts
- Thread starter YoungMilsurpGuy
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Indeed. I would think one might get a glimpse just by watching the video posted by jdhaines. Its pretty clear he isn't in control of the situation for the majority of the time. He's off balance, usually using both hands just to (barely) minimize the number of stab wounds he's sustaining, and it takes him several seconds to achieve a position where he wouldn't get completely overwhelmed if he tied up one hand to reach for a weapon.
iChokePeople
Master
- Feb 11, 2011
- 4,556
- 48
Thanks Josh, great work. The unusual HONEST look at it. But really, even that is a rosy picture of the problem, IMHO. You knew you were going to be attacked, no real surprise, you saw the attack and the knife coming, the attack was devoid of the emotion that would generally be involved, only a small amount of the real pain and adrenaline you'd likely feel, no blood making things all slippery... Etc.
Still one of the best looks I've seen at this. Thanks for posting it.
Still one of the best looks I've seen at this. Thanks for posting it.
Often I find that the more flashy or "cool" a technique or tactic looks, the less useful it is in reality. Reality is ugly and littered with mistakes. Just watching a few YouTube videos of actual stabbings will start to wake a person up to such a reality (and probably turn your stomach).
Agreed.
A question, or point at least, to present: In your final bout where you gained positive control of his attack arm, had the attacker still been actively trying to combat you what would the concensus be on one handedly deploying your sidearm at that time?
On its surface, I would imagine just pulling it and popping a round in his head would likely land you in jail. However, if you retrieved the weapon, and poised yourself to release his arm and immediately put a few feet between you and him (as much as you can), I can see where this could change the situation enough. If he then gets up to come after you again I see it as feasible to have put enough distance between you and him to make a difference since you were in control, on top, and he was laying on the ground. On the other hand by this time he could have digressed enough to not try again (doubtful, but possible.) Either way, you're in a much better position than immediate contact distance playing a lay and wait game, and now you've taken the upper hand (as much of one as you can) in the situation, and even given him a second chance to rethink his actions (in the eyes of the law.)
I know the answer from a military perspective. However, here there are legal issues to worry about (no matter how much I wish there weren't)
Last edited:
If that does it for you, you should watch some of the cartel revenge and ransom videos...
In the scenario you describe you are actively fighting with a guy who is trying to stab you. He is still trying to stab you. He is struggling to regain control and continue stabbing you. Why couldnt you shoot him, legally speaking?
I could see where the court might see it as you have gained control of him and then proceeded to use excessive force (since you were previously in control.)
I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say that has/would happen, but I can easily see that coming up in today's world. It would likely depend on witness testimony of course.
The opposing lawyer will do that regardless. That's his job. Step one: Survive.
Agreed, but surviving without being in jail would be a close 2nd place. I wouldn't think twice about the actions in a moral perspective, but as the protector of my family I won't be doing any good behind bars.
So, I present such a response. I see it as rather feasible, although perhaps slightly more risky. The thing is we have the benefit of discussing things now whereas if in that situation you won't have the time to make all these consideration. So, I presented the topic.
Three things need to be present to employ lethal force against another;
1)Ability (in this case knife)
2)Intent (he has attacked you)
3)Jeopardy (would a reasonable person agree your life is in imminent danger)
I have been face to face with a knife before and did not shoot even though it would have been justified. (I was young and idealistic.
) I wouldn't make that mistake again.Agreed, but you also didn't face any sort legal ramifications due to that choice.Three things need to be present to employ lethal force against another;
1)Ability (in this case knife)
2)Intent (he has attacked you)
3)Jeopardy (would a reasonable person agree your life is in imminent danger)
I have been face to face with a knife before and did not shoot even though it would have been justified. (I was young and idealistic.
In a fluid situation, he did gain control for a moment. That could change things in the eyes of the court. So, could there be a more appropriate way to handle it and avoid both death and jail time.
Admitedly, I would seriously have to have some sort of epiphany at that moment to not take my immediate reaction. I doubt that would happen, but I'm not everyone else here who may read this. That is the reason for presenting this perspective.
Some thoughts from my previous training classes and what has come out in the training group over the last few years.
1) You don't access a weapon until you control the limb closest to it. My thought both times I disengaged was to disengage (escape) and use the distance to get my weapon access. I'd prefer not to escape in front of him. I almost released him at the end sooner, but I felt like he could have spun too quickly. He also had handswitched the knife so my main 2-on-1 hold was useless and I was in a precarious position. I waited until I could dump him messily and disengage so my access could have been made easier. My running at the camera (away from him) would have been my weapon access, get in the building, get in a car with locked doors, etc time.
2) For the same reason I didn't grab for my gun on the initial attack, I wouldn't have grabbed my gun while still clinched up until I had a maintainable dominant position. I wasn't in mount, gift wrap, S-hold or any other position where I can guarantee a few seconds of control with one hand engaged in a drawstroke. It was sort of a messy turtle where he could have spun and kept up the attack. There is nothing worse than losing dominant position when you are already gassed. Sometimes the moral drop makes the situation unrecoverable. If you get dominant position keep it and look to disengage.
If you guys dig these I'll do some more. I know Will doesn't mind, and there are about 15 other people in the area who have trained with the group before. I'll try and start doing some video here and there. I don't mind doing these all out because every time I feel like I get a touch better and die a little less often. I didn't know how it would be received but I knew I wanted to get it out there. Maybe we'll do some with the questions mentioned in the thread. Our local training group works this stuff quite often. If anyone is in the area and wants to partake as either role, or just drill let me know. We'll find time.
We don't have any high level grapplers who train with us, but it would really open some of your eyes to see this exact thing with someone like a BJJ purple belt or higher, or a legit wrestler. It's stunning how quickly a good high school wrestler can put you on your head or a legit BJJ practitioner can wrap you up like a pretzel. In my experience, an excellent boxer can do some damage but a mid-level or lower boxer/striker can't really do much different than a no-body. It's too fast and chaotic to set up your strikes. Also in my experience, anyone who uses a striking system with kicks gets one or two off and ends up dumped because of the balance commitment required for a kick.
1) You don't access a weapon until you control the limb closest to it. My thought both times I disengaged was to disengage (escape) and use the distance to get my weapon access. I'd prefer not to escape in front of him. I almost released him at the end sooner, but I felt like he could have spun too quickly. He also had handswitched the knife so my main 2-on-1 hold was useless and I was in a precarious position. I waited until I could dump him messily and disengage so my access could have been made easier. My running at the camera (away from him) would have been my weapon access, get in the building, get in a car with locked doors, etc time.
2) For the same reason I didn't grab for my gun on the initial attack, I wouldn't have grabbed my gun while still clinched up until I had a maintainable dominant position. I wasn't in mount, gift wrap, S-hold or any other position where I can guarantee a few seconds of control with one hand engaged in a drawstroke. It was sort of a messy turtle where he could have spun and kept up the attack. There is nothing worse than losing dominant position when you are already gassed. Sometimes the moral drop makes the situation unrecoverable. If you get dominant position keep it and look to disengage.
If you guys dig these I'll do some more. I know Will doesn't mind, and there are about 15 other people in the area who have trained with the group before. I'll try and start doing some video here and there. I don't mind doing these all out because every time I feel like I get a touch better and die a little less often. I didn't know how it would be received but I knew I wanted to get it out there. Maybe we'll do some with the questions mentioned in the thread. Our local training group works this stuff quite often. If anyone is in the area and wants to partake as either role, or just drill let me know. We'll find time.
We don't have any high level grapplers who train with us, but it would really open some of your eyes to see this exact thing with someone like a BJJ purple belt or higher, or a legit wrestler. It's stunning how quickly a good high school wrestler can put you on your head or a legit BJJ practitioner can wrap you up like a pretzel. In my experience, an excellent boxer can do some damage but a mid-level or lower boxer/striker can't really do much different than a no-body. It's too fast and chaotic to set up your strikes. Also in my experience, anyone who uses a striking system with kicks gets one or two off and ends up dumped because of the balance commitment required for a kick.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
- 25,897
- 113
Very nice work, that's fantastic. I've slacked off in my "vs knife" training due to other priorities and have no claim to expertise in it, but it is absolutely humbling to go against a knife fighter who knows what he's doing. Again, very nice contribution.
The Bubba Effect
Grandmaster
JDHaines, just watched the vid, thanks for posting that. I went through a phase when I was watching knife attack videos on the internet and you're right about the energy. Most of the vids showed an attacker making a repeated circular stabbing motions like your attacker and the person getting stabbed usually either collapses or stands around a minute and then collapses. To be honest, I came away from my study figuring that the initiative and willingness accounts for a huge amount in a knife fight. I pretty much conceded the field to getting stabbed if attacked and trying to do the best I could and hope to muddle through enough to pull off a sloppy hip throw or something and draw and fire. Not much of a plan, I know. I will check out this "redzone" thing you are talking about. Links? I also think you're attacking a bit of a straw man in the OP's video. I didn't see it as instructional or a suggested course of action, but as some guys trying out different mechanics in a very limitted format to try and figure out what could work.
If you go to our website and view the article Paladin Combatives LLC | Real Knife Attack Energy Josh gives the pertinent links in the Discussion section.
Finally got to watch the videos. Interesting to say the least. Very much appreciate the video rebuttal JDHaines! Coming from a martial arts background which taught "avoidance" through various methods, I took a class recently that was based on real self defense techniques and they taught to gain control of the weapon similarly to what you taught. Seeing it play out in your video was a great reinforcement of "duel" vs "stay alive." Thanks and +1
Wow, what an eye-opener. Excellent video by the way! I just started to lurk more on this forum and am really starting to learn how much I DON'T know and how much I really need to re-think most everything I THOUGHT I knew. Looking forward to continued lurking/training.
Big thanks to all that contribute here, you'll probably save a life or few. Even the ones that post less-than-perfect advice, as this usually challenges people's thoughts and beliefs and gets the discussion from others going even further in depth - God Bless!
Big thanks to all that contribute here, you'll probably save a life or few. Even the ones that post less-than-perfect advice, as this usually challenges people's thoughts and beliefs and gets the discussion from others going even further in depth - God Bless!
