Guns Do Not Need Fingers to go Bang

[Kirk Freeman]

Originally Posted by Bennettjh I wonder if this has ever happened to a shotgun...



Good question.

 

[T.Lex]

Wasn't there an old gun store fable about an AR's bolt forward assist?

 

[TKDMaster10]

He was probably using one of those crappy "universal" nylon thigh rigs. I wouldn't trust one of those with an airosft gun lol

 

[NHT3]

Anything is possible but since personal responsibility is a lost virtue for a huge percentage of the population I would have to see some real evidence of this to believe it.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Certified Glock armorer- Certified M&P armorer[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

 

[bradbler]

be mindful of your trigger and your holster and you wont have a problem

 

[NIFT]

It is certain that defective (design, manufacturing, use, "tricking out," etc.) guns can fire without an operator pulling the trigger.
However, guns cannot go off by themselves, because they cannot load themselves. A person is, still, needed to load a gun. Hence the first two safe gun handling rules:

1. All guns are always loaded unless and until you, personally, have just cleared them.
2. Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.

I help out at ZX Gun in Fort Wayne from time to time, and I constantly--I mean all the time--see people holding guns with their fingers on the triggers and a hand or finger over the muzzle or pointed at their daughter's head or some other dangerous direction, and they did not check the firearm for clear.

While researching gunshot wounds to the hand, the vast majority were to the left hand, with entrance wounds on the palm side.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

Video Example

Found this via FB and love how this RO handles the situation.

[video]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzwp8RfQy9eXMFhBNklnS3Z0MUk[/video]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

be mindful of your trigger and your holster and you wont have a problem

Um, you might.

Guns can go bang without your trigger or your holster.

I have had to wrestle INGO like Jacob with the angel to get them to understand this fundamental mechanical hazard of firearms.

 

[HubertGummer]

Um, you might.

Guns can go bang without your trigger or your holster.

I have had to wrestle INGO like Jacob with the angel to get them to understand this fundamental mechanical hazard of firearms.

So that makes me wonder, if guns can go off on their own(Im not questioning you, I could see it being possible), is it really better to carry without one in the pipe?

 

[Nacelle]

Not that it's impossible, but it certainly is a less likely to have it happen with a backstrap safety. When holstering my XD9, I make sure not to have my hand on it.

 

[ATM]

...Hence the first two safe gun handling rules[STRIKE]

1. All guns are always loaded unless and until you, personally, have just cleared them.

[/STRIKE]

1. Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.

Striking your #1 suggestion ...because it's nonsense.

The other one makes a far better #1, so I went ahead and upgraded it.

 

[NIFT]

Originally Posted by NIFT

...Hence the first two safe gun handling rules
1. All guns are always loaded unless and until you, personally, have just cleared them.
2. Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.

Striking your #1 suggestion ...because it's nonsense.

The other one makes a far better #1, so I went ahead and upgraded it.

Nonsense, eh? Whatever you say, pal.
Guess what?
One must violate all three of these rules simultaneously to get a catastrophic negligent discharge:
1) All guns are always loaded, unless you, personally, have just cleared them.
2) Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.
3) Keep your (frickin') finger off the trigger unless ready to shoot.

The order is not a disjointed sequence; they are simultaneous.
Of course, the assumption is the gun is not defective.

You are welcome to violate the first one all you want, claiming it is, "nonsense," but I will continue to teach all three.

 

[ATM]

Originally Posted by NIFT

...Hence the first two safe gun handling rules
1. All guns are always loaded unless and until you, personally, have just cleared them.
2. Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.


Nonsense, eh? Whatever you say, pal.
Guess what?
One must violate all three of these rules simultaneously to get a catastrophic negligent discharge:
1) All guns are always loaded, unless you, personally, have just cleared them.
2) Always point the gun's muzzle in the safest direction.
3) Keep your (frickin') finger off the trigger unless ready to shoot.

The order is not a disjointed sequence; they are simultaneous.
Of course, the assumption is the gun is not defective.

You are welcome to violate the first one all you want, claiming it is, "nonsense," but I will continue to teach all three.

I violate your first rule all the time, and nobody is able to correct me because I still handle guns safely while violating it.

As an NRA certified instructor, I'm sure you at least had to look at their 3 rules at some point.

Why did you abandon them for this garbled nonsense when they are so clearly superior? That just doesn't make any sense.

 

[NIFT]

I violate your first rule all the time, and nobody is able to correct me because I still handle guns safely while violating it.

As an NRA certified instructor, I'm sure you at least had to look at their 3 rules at some point.

Why did you abandon them for this garbled nonsense when they are so clearly superior? That just doesn't make any sense.

Congratulations for bragging you are safe while violating a fundamental safety rule. True: you can, still, avoid a catastrophic negligent discharge by pointing the muzzle in a safe direction and keeping your finger off the trigger, even though you are above checking your guns for being loaded or unloaded.

Thanks you for your snarky, condescending comment about my looking at NRA safety rules.

Incorrect on number three in your list, but I must bow to your superiority in pronouncing fundamental safety rules, "garbled nonsense," that you claim make no sense. I suggest you contact the folks at the NRA Cam and Company show and inform them just how misguided they are by having me on the show a number of times to talk about guns and gun safety. No doubt, you will convince Cam to agree with you that what I have stated on his show is, "garbled nonsense," "That just doesn't make any sense." Be sure to tell him that I encouraged you to enlighten him. On one of his shows, Cam called me an "evangelist" (his word) for gun safety. You need to straighten him out on such a glaring error!

I really do appreciate your input, however. Just today, in a class, I was able to quote your stance on safety, and it was, quite truly, highly instructional to everyone. I guarantee I will, also, use your latest input in subsequent classes and presentations, starting with tomorrow's class.

 

[ATM]

Congratulations for bragging you are safe while violating a fundamental safety rule.

There is nothing fundamental about it, it is a nonsense statement.

True: you can, still, avoid a catastrophic negligent discharge by pointing the muzzle in a safe direction and keeping your finger off the trigger, even though you are above checking your guns for being loaded or unloaded.

Was that difficult to admit? I'm not above checking loaded status, but there's no need for that silly mantra.

Thanks you for your snarky, condescending comment about my looking at NRA safety rules.

It's just a fact, you've seen them and yet you opt to abandon them. I can be snarky if you'd like, but that sure wasn't it.

Incorrect on number three in your list, but I must bow to your superiority in pronouncing fundamental safety rules, "garbled nonsense," that you claim make no sense.

It was a question. Try answering it. Why did you abandon the NRA rules for this?

I suggest you contact the folks at the NRA Cam and Company show and inform them just how misguided they are by having me on the show a number of times to talk about guns and gun safety. No doubt, you will convince Cam to agree with you that what I have stated on his show is, "garbled nonsense," "That just doesn't make any sense." Be sure to tell him that I encouraged you to enlighten him. On one of his shows, Cam called me an "evangelist" (his word) for gun safety. You need to straighten him out on such a glaring error!

If Cam condones abandoning the NRA safe gun handling rules as you have, I'd be fine straightening him out, too. They are superior to what you adopted.

I really do appreciate your input, however. Just today, in a class, I was able to quote your stance on safety, and it was, quite truly, highly instructional to everyone. I guarantee I will, also, use your latest input in subsequent classes and presentations, starting with tomorrow's class.

If you'd like to schedule me to attend one of your classes, I can straighten you out in front of your students as easily as I can do it here on the forum, No big deal, I love this stuff!

 

[NIFT]

I love it! Thank you, so much; it is far beyond my wildest expectation of you, sir.
If you don't want to educate Cam on safety and how misinformed I really am, I have another suggestion: Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch.

Here, Clint states, emphatically, four times, the first rule of gun safety is, "All guns are always loaded."
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...3D375A5668A4C1CD47E43D375A5668A4C1C&FORM=VIRE
The applicable part starts at 1:30. In fact, from 1:37 to 2:02, it almost seems he is talking directly to you.

It is obvious you believe Clint is promoting "garbled nonsense" too. Suggest you pay him a visit as a guest expert and lecture his students on his "nonsense." At the minimum, call him at Thunder Ranch or e-mail him, and tell him "All guns are always loaded" is, in your infinite wisdom, "garbled nonsense." Please inform us how he bowed to your superior knowledge.

Oh, yes, I would relish your visiting one or more of my classes to share your phenomenal expertise. Enrollment forms are on our website, and I am willing to extend a special price for you: I will only charge you $290.00 to tell our guests that I (and Clint Smith) are spouting nothing but "garbled nonsense." Looking forward to taking your money!

But, don't worry: I will present ever bit of your incredible input with my classes, starting this morning. Can't thank you enough!

 

[ATM]

Why won't you actually answer the question I keep asking you, NIFT?

Safe gun handling is important and I'd like to know why you believe the 3 NRA rules are somehow inferior to the "all guns are always loaded" mantra you adopted and choose to teach.

I'd ask Cam or Clint the same thing before explaining it to them in greater detail.

It's a simple question. Have you ever even thought about it?


ETA: You're not doing your students any favors by avoiding this discussion. You can pay me in sammiches if you want me to attend.

 

[hog slayer]

What is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular.

What's wrong with:
1)treat every weapon as if it were loaded
2)never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
3)keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
4)keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire


I suppose that with so many firearms lacking external safeties that could get a bit confusing. It never really occurred to me until now that those rules may have been intended for a specific audience of military personnel. Either way, I've certainly been around a LOT of openly carrying people that also had bullets and very few injuries to themselves or others upon ND. Actually, every time we had an ND in country that I am aware of it was due to complacency. Thankfully rule 1 was followed. Not to dismiss that we had very few ND's either. But when we did everyone had to hear about it and much refreshing on safe weapons handling ensued.

The NRA teaches:
1) always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2) always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
3)always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

Maybe that will clear up any confusion.

I will say that as far as I go, once a gun is broken down it is no longer a gun. Meaning when it is mechanically impossible to fire as a machine, it is no longer a weapon. For instance, if you break an AR down and the two halves are separated it no longer is a weapon. A firearm in slide lock is not the same by my considerations.

 

[ATM]

The 3 NRA rules for safe gun handling keeps the golden rule of gun safety, the most important item, as #1, the second most important as #2, leaving loaded status in its proper place.

We shouldn't teach people to treat guns "as if they're loaded", when what we want is for them to learn to handle guns safely.

 

[hog slayer]

Interesting position. So that I don't believe that your position is simply to be argumentative, is there an instance where you could explain to me how your position and my position different such a way as to make someone unsafe or irresponsible?

What is it that we are trying to be responsible to or for Rather? Isn't it that we don't want things to be shot which we didn't intend to shoot? So is it responsibility? Or safety?